Coupe de Grace: auto hit?

[Nikosandros]

I'm a bit unclear about the wording of the Coupe de Grace action.

Does the attacker automatically hits for critical damage, or is a hit roll (with all the modifiers from a helpless target) still required?

 

[Torchlyte]

You must still roll to hit, but the target grants you combat advantage (helpless) and -7 (Unconscious, Prone) to all defenses against melee attacks.

 

[ebenmckay]

The coup de grace has combat advantage (+2 to hit) and the target has -5 to all defenses for being unconscious. Helpless and prone both grant combat advantage, but I don't think they stack with each other.

 

[Stalker0]

Helpless and prone both grant combat advantage, but I don't think they stack with each other.

This is very important for those coming in from 3x. Many conditions grant combat advantage now, but they don't stack.

Flanking a target or flanking a prone target grant you the same bonus.

 

[Nikosandros]

This is very important for those coming in from 3x. Many conditions grant combat advantage now, but they don't stack.

Flanking a target or flanking a prone target grant you the same bonus.

Well, combat advantage gives +2 to hit, while helpless is -5 to defenses, so I think that they do stack.

And thanks to everybody. I thought that a hit roll was required, but I wasn't sure.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

Niko, they do stack. What the people were talking about was an earlier response where someone said CA was granted ( +2) and then -7 to defense ( unconscious, prone). Prone actually grants CA to melee attackers and was already taken into account.

 

[Nikosandros]

Niko, they do stack. What the people were talking about was an earlier response where someone said CA was granted ( +2) and then -7 to defense ( unconscious, prone). Prone actually grants CA to melee attackers and was already taken into account.

Right, I had misread what was being said...

 

[Switchback]

The Coup de Grace reads as a automatic critical to me.

Notice that it has no Attack line. Which would normally be,

"Attack vs Defense"

It only has a "Hit:" line, which always tells damage. In this case, the damage is automatically a critical of whatever attack chosen.

On the next page over (PH 289) the Coup de grace is listed again, in the table for standard actions and the description for it simply reads "Make a critcial hit against a helpless enemy" Meaning the action itself (taking a Coup De Grace) results in a critical. There is no attack necessary.

Compare for example "Basic Attack" which is listed above in the column and actually tells you to make an attack.

Note that a unconscious (or helpless) character is not merely prone, as in laying on the ground trying to avoid blows, he is simply lying on the ground motionless, helpless. He is no harder to hit than a door, a table, or any other static object.

Furthermore, if an unconscious creature *was* granted his normal defense (Fortitude, Reflex, or Willpower) the power makes absolutely no sense. The reason a Wizard has a higher Willpower than a Kobold is because he is actively resisting with his mind. If he is unconscious, he cannot do that. Same with Reflex. An agile Drow has a high reflex because of his better coordination and agility vs something with a poor reflex like a Zombie. It is silly to assume that a unconscious Drow would still require a 20 to hit then, but a Zombie only a 10 when both are laying on the ground not moving!

An obvious argument for the critical being automatic.

 

[Grazzt]

The Coup de Grace reads as a automatic critical to me.

Notice that it has no Attack line. Which would normally be,

"Attack vs Defense"

It only has a "Hit:" line, which always tells damage. In this case, the damage is automatically a critical of whatever attack chosen.

On the next page over (PH 289) the Coup de grace is listed again, in the table for standard actions and the description for it simply reads "Make a critcial hit against a helpless enemy" Meaning the action itself (taking a Coup De Grace) results in a critical. There is no attack necessary.

Compare for example "Basic Attack" which is listed above in the column and actually tells you to make an attack.

Note that a unconscious (or helpless) character is not merely prone, as in laying on the ground trying to avoid blows, he is simply lying on the ground motionless, helpless. He is no harder to hit than a door, a table, or any other static object.

Yep. That's how I read it too. Auto hit. No roll needed.

 

[alanpossible]

Your theory is that (being helpless) you cannot resist a mind affecting power (will defence), or dodge an incoming fireball (reflex defence).

By that same logic, you cannot defend against an arrow being fired at you, or a sword being swung at you.

If that's true, why does the helpless condition bother giving you -5 to all defences? if such attacks always hit, what is the purpose of the -5 penalty?

The only explanation I can see is that, somehow, coup-de-grace is not an automatic hit.