Coupe de Grace: auto hit?

[Kordeth]

I can see you point to a degree. But as with the Paladin ability, it can do damage but is still part of a description that includes other effects. In other words, it would make no sense to list the damage that power does in a Hit line, because it would be extremely confusing since that damage is conditional. Are there any "effect" lines in the game that are only damage, not tied to another more complex effect?

No, because there are no powers that inflict direct damage not tied to a more complex effect that don't require an attack roll. Further evidence that coup de grace requires an attack roll.

Your way sits very uncomfortably with me. Since the description of CdG is so vague, I'm trying to make a common sense walkthrough.

It seems quite odd to me that you would swing your sword against a unconscious Giant for instance and possibly miss and hit the floor, but then if you *do* hit, that every time that hit is some massive vital strike.

If it bugs you that much, add the line "Miss: You inflict the attack power's normal damage. This replaces any effect the power normally has on a miss." to the coup de grace rules.

 

[Switchback]

PHB, unconscious:

You’re helpless.
*You take a –5 penalty to all defenses.*
You can’t take actions.
You fall prone, if possible.
You can’t flank an enemy.

That's a -5 to all defenses, not an automatic hit. Right there smack dab on the conditions page.

The Coup de Grace is a special attack that only happens adjacent to a Unconscious or helpless character. It is not the same as shooting an arrow at him, which indeed would apply the -5 penalty.

Let's look at the dragon example some more.

Theoretically a party of level 1 adventurers *could* slay a unconscious dragon given enough time. But in the understanding of a Coup de Grace needing a attack roll, they would only hit once in 20 tries?

It makes absolutely zero sense. And neither can you make the argument that they are actually hitting more than that, but that his armor is too tough to penetrate. Because 4e doesn’t work like that.

A Wizard’s Magic Missile for instance either hits the target or not. That is why it normally requires a attack roll. However, once it does hit, it has a very specific damage level, 2d4+Int, which the quality of that damage is no different between a level 1 Wizard and a level 20 Wizard. The level 20 might do a few more points for his higher intelligence but otherwise, there is no difference in the damage if they rolled differently and both ended up at 10 damage.

 

[Vaeron]

The Coup de Grace is a special attack that only happens adjacent to a Unconscious or helpless character. It is not the same as shooting an arrow at him, which indeed would apply the -5 penalty.

This also is untrue. Making a non-adjacent ranged attack versus a prone target gives the victim +2 to all defenses, making their defense penalty -3 instead of -5. But it is still -3, not an automatic hit.

From the PHB, same page I listed before:
Prone
*You get a +2 bonus to all defenses against ranged
attacks from nonadjacent enemies.*

Seems like some people could use a good reading over of this one page - most of the conditions are summarized right there.

 

[Kordeth]

This also is untrue. Making a non-adjacent ranged attack versus a prone target gives the victim +2 to all defenses, making their defense penalty -3 instead of -5. But it is still -3, not an automatic hit.

From the PHB, same page I listed before:
Prone
*You get a +2 bonus to all defenses against ranged
attacks from nonadjacent enemies.*

Seems like some people could use a good reading over of this one page - most of the conditions are summarized right there.

Much as I'm certain Switchback is incorrect in the assumption that a coup de grace is an automatic hit, he's correct that the -5 to all Defenses is not proof that a coup de grace isn't an auto-hit. A coup de grace is a melee or ranged attack, but it must be made against an adjacent enemy. So even if a coup de grace were an auto-hit, the fact that you can still shoot a helpless target from, say, 5 squares away means you still need that -5 to all defenses, because it's possible to attack a helpless character and have it not be a coup de grace.

 

[Switchback]

I guess everyone will have to go their own way until this is clarified by an official answer. Some perhaps feel it is clarified but I don't. Most of these explanations for my questions amount to hand-waving.

A Coup de Grace has long been understood as a common sense method of dealing with a creature that otherwise had no defense from being slain outright. It absolved the group of going through the motions of hacking through hundreds of hit points.

In combat, the act becomes somewhat more difficult but not overly so. It is not hitting the helpless creature that should be in doubt (any more than hitting a static table or door) but whether you can do enough damage before the creatures comes to.

If you have time to take a standard action, you have time to deliver a fairly lethal blow. Whether that is slashing their neck, stabbing them in their eye, or putting a sledgehammer in their crotch. Take your pick. But until the situation is 100% clear, I refuse to accept that my fighter can’t easily connect on the unconscious ogre at his feet, just because Bilbo the Halfling is over in the other corner fighting a large rat.

If the ruling comes down as advocated by some in this thread, it will no doubt be only so because they decided to make a level 1 Sleep spell that rendered creatures unconscious and fear over-powering it. A rather poor reason to botch up common sense mechanics so severely.

 

[hamishspence]

the rules

Yes, its annoying that you can still miss (using the requirement that you must make an attack) But again, its not that unfeasible, at least for AC, because AC is applied as a penalty to hit, rather than damage reduction. Same with defenses. Suppose the attack power was a brain-frying one: Int vs Will, psychic damage. Again, you can say the mental defenses, while partially lowered by helplessness and/or unconciousness, weren't completely lowered: power bounces off.

Consider it an artifact of the way D&D does AC. Given that it is a standard action, not a "Full Round Action" as per 3.5, I don't have any trouble with the notition that sometimes, the player just fumbles it. Since Coup-de-grace is harder to fumble than normal attack (-5 defense penalty, then maybe combat advantage) its not a huge disaster.

And what is a level 1 character doing fighting a level 15 dragon? the defense penalty means you can hit, and coup-de-grace dragons on 16-20, when you'd normally need a 20 to hit: that seems pretty good. Dragons are just heavily defended. and if the coup-de-grace is against a creature so high you still need a 20 to hit, it really ought to be tricky.

Powers vs reflex are the tricky ones: its hard to imagine a sleeping dragon dodging. Not sure how I would describe it. Maybe reflex isn't just a dodge?