CR of a permanently polymorphed dragon

[IcyCool]

*bump*

Did I really get the polymorphing rules right on the first try? Does the second stat block I posted represent the Old Red Dragon from the first stat block in polymorphed form?

 

[EPRock]

Hit Dice: 1 HD for various rules purposes (182 hp)

Hit dice should be:
Hit Dice: 28d12 (182 hp)

The type should be

Humanoid (Human) (Augmented Dragon)

 

[IcyCool]

Hit dice should be:
Hit Dice: 28d12 (182 hp)

The type should be

Humanoid (Human) (Augmented Dragon)

Where did you get the Hit Dice and (Augmented Dragon) subtype from?

 

[Chorn]

The human form stat looks about right. I do have a few things I'm not sure about though. I am not certain it would retain its breath weapon in human form. While it does have a mouth for it, and it is a supernatural ability, it could be argued that it's more of a physical kind of supernatural ability that a human would not have the physiology to produce. The same might be said of the dragon's damage reduction being tied to the creature's impenetrable hide.

Either way, those are things that you can go either way and still be correct IMHO. Keep them if you think it might make the dragon too easy to defeat, but ditch them if it causes problem with encounter difficulty.

There is one more thing that may or may not be correct which I really don't want to touch. The number of hit points is of calculated correctly, but you list it as having "1 HD for various rules purposes". There was a recent thread where there was disagreement on whether your number of hit dice change for certain effects based on such when you are polymorphed. You may want to review the arguments within since it can lead to strange situations. Personally, I am of the opinion that it retains its 28 HD for all effects all the time.

 

[IcyCool]

The human form stat looks about right. I do have a few things I'm not sure about though. I am not certain it would retain its breath weapon in human form. While it does have a mouth for it, and it is a supernatural ability, it could be argued that it's more of a physical kind of supernatural ability that a human would not have the physiology to produce. The same might be said of the dragon's damage reduction being tied to the creature's impenetrable hide.

Is Damage Reduction an Ex ability? If so, the dragon doesn't keep it. And it looks like the dragon keeps it's breath weapon in any form that has a mouth, by RAW. I could be mistaken there though, which is why I'm asking the question.

There is one more thing that may or may not be correct which I really don't want to touch. The number of hit points is of calculated correctly, but you list it as having "1 HD for various rules purposes". There was a recent thread where there was disagreement on whether your number of hit dice change for certain effects based on such when you are polymorphed. You may want to review the arguments within since it can lead to strange situations. Personally, I am of the opinion that it retains its 28 HD for all effects all the time.

Yeah, I'm not sure on that. I'm basing the 1 HD thing off of the Rules of the Game article about polymorphing, which is probably a bad idea.

It looks like getting the CR for this beastie will be a house rule, so once I get that stat block hammered out, I'll be asking for CR guess-timates in a house rules thread.

 

[Chorn]

Is Damage Reduction an Ex ability?

Magic, epic, cold iron, silver, and alignment based DR is supernatural so RAW it keeps it. However, my objection is more of a flavor thing. I personally feel that a dragon's DR is based on the supernatural hardness of its scales combined with its massive size. Sorry if I didn't make it more clear I was offering some flavor based nitpicks as opposed to ones based in actual concrete rules.

And it looks like the dragon keeps it's breath weapon in any form that has a mouth, by RAW. I could be mistaken there though, which is why I'm asking the question.

Strictly by the RAW it keeps it. But again my objection is more of a flavor based one. Since it's taken on a human's physiology it probably no longer has the "breath weapon organs" in its body. Dragon disciples get a breath weapon, but then they're based on the character slowly changing his physical form to that of a dragon. Although to support the dragon keeping its breath weapon while polymorphed, a creature that can't breathe can still use its breath weapon.

I'm basing the 1 HD thing off of the Rules of the Game article about polymorphing, which is probably a bad idea.

Those articles don't have a great track record for even resembling the rules for D&D in my opinion. I mean do you really want the party wizard tossing a Cloudkill and autokilling the dragon with it?

It looks like getting the CR for this beastie will be a house rule, so once I get that stat block hammered out, I'll be asking for CR guess-timates in a house rules thread.

Off the bat, I'd say base it off a sorcerer based Eldritch Knight of the appropriate level while keeping in mind that it has significantly higher hit points and BAB since it doesn't have actual sorcerer levels to retard its prowess in physical combat.

 

[IcyCool]

Sorry if I didn't make it more clear I was offering some flavor based nitpicks as opposed to ones based in actual concrete rules.

No problem.

Off the bat, I'd say base it off a sorcerer based Eldritch Knight of the appropriate level while keeping in mind that it has significantly higher hit points and BAB since it doesn't have actual sorcerer levels to retard its prowess in physical combat.

Well, an old red dragon has a CR of 20. And the polymorphed form seems much less powerful to me. Off to House Rules for me!

 

[noeuphoria]

You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

This sentence says to me that the spell needs adjudication. Becuase I would say that a pit fiend polymorphed into a human can still use his spell-like abilities, because they are tied to its essential nature, it's "soul", whereas things like poison bite, tail constrict, are obviously functions of its body structure. For a dragon, the DM will have to decide how much the breath weapon is tied into it's "soul". The fact that it's (su) would seem to argue that breath weapons are more tied to the nature of the dragons spirit than to it's physical body, although it still makes more sense to me that breath weapons would be (ex), but that may be prejudice carried over from my concept of how a dragon should work.

 

[moritheil]

So, do the stat blocks I posted above look about right?

Edit: moritheil, Dragon Disciples don't get a tail at epic levels either.

I'm thinking of the "tail slap" attack found here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20021208a

It seems to imply that they get tails at epic levels if you're using this progression.

 

[IcyCool]

I'm thinking of the "tail slap" attack found here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20021208a

It seems to imply that they get tails at epic levels if you're using this progression.

I'm going by the SRD. I can't speak to the progression you linked to as the link is broken.