CR of a permanently polymorphed dragon

[IcyCool]

A while back, someone posted here asking how they could have a combat encounter with his BBEG (an old or very old red dragon) and his 10th level party without a TPK. Someone suggested that the dragon be polymorphed into a humanoid form, and be either unable or unwilling to shift to his normal form. I thought this was a brilliant idea. My question is threefold:

1. What would the challenge rating of an old or very old red dragon be? (answer, 20 or 21) What would it be if the dragon were polymorphed into a human and couldn't change into its normal form? Would it be its equivalent sorceror level?

2. What would the aforementioned, polymorphed, old red dragon's stat block look like? I'm a little fuzzy when it comes to the polymorph rules.

3. Is there any way to get polymorph to last longer than 1/min per level besides using polymorph any object (requiring a 16th level sorceror)?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[moritheil]

A while back, someone posted here asking how they could have a combat encounter with his BBEG (an old or very old red dragon) and his 10th level party without a TPK. Someone suggested that the dragon be polymorphed into a humanoid form, and be either unable or unwilling to shift to his normal form. I thought this was a brilliant idea. My question is threefold:

1. What would the challenge rating of an old or very old red dragon be? (answer, 20 or 21) What would it be if the dragon were polymorphed into a human and couldn't change into its normal form? Would it be its equivalent sorceror level?

2. What would the aforementioned, polymorphed, old red dragon's stat block look like? I'm a little fuzzy when it comes to the polymorph rules.

3. Is there any way to get polymorph to last longer than 1/min per level besides using polymorph any object (requiring a 16th level sorceror)?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

In the interests of fun and profit, and general coolness, I would simply give exp for the old red dragon, since they defeated it. Of course, this could be wildly out of line with the characters' current levels, in which case I would use the dragon's sorcerer level (after all, that's the only part that affected the fight. The rest - the survival of said dragon - is just window dressing.)

 

[Rkhet]

It would have to be higher than the sorcerer level: the dragon gets to keep his hitpoints and hit dice, his immunities, his BAB and base saves, his ultra-high mental stats (my guess is that physicals drop to 10s, though by the rules you really can't polymorph into human since it's a template) and even his breath weapon (dragon disciples get it, so presumably this is not limited by physical qualities).

All that he'll lose is the physical stats, flight, and the natural weapons.

 

[IcyCool]

In the interests of fun and profit, and general coolness, I would simply give exp for the old red dragon, since they defeated it. Of course, this could be wildly out of line with the characters' current levels, in which case I would use the dragon's sorcerer level (after all, that's the only part that affected the fight. The rest - the survival of said dragon - is just window dressing.)

Well, I'm really just interested in a rough estimate of the CR of the beastie. If I'm not mistaken, an old red dragon polymorphed into a human (with 10 Con) will still have 182 hp, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 20, and huge saves (does he still get his frightful presence and breath weapon?). If we used his caster (sorceror) level to determine CR, he'd be a CR 11.

 

[IcyCool]

It would have to be higher than the sorcerer level: the dragon gets to keep his hitpoints and hit dice, his immunities, his BAB and base saves, his ultra-high mental stats (my guess is that physicals drop to 10s, though by the rules you really can't polymorph into human since it's a template) and even his breath weapon (dragon disciples get it, so presumably this is not limited by physical qualities).

All that he'll lose is the physical stats, flight, and the natural weapons.

Human is a template? Where do you get that from?

 

[moritheil]

It would have to be higher than the sorcerer level: the dragon gets to keep his hitpoints and hit dice, his immunities, his BAB and base saves, his ultra-high mental stats (my guess is that physicals drop to 10s, though by the rules you really can't polymorph into human since it's a template) and even his breath weapon (dragon disciples get it, so presumably this is not limited by physical qualities).

All that he'll lose is the physical stats, flight, and the natural weapons.

That's why my first instinct is to just say they defeated the dragon and be done with it. Note that he probably disappears with his treasure, so all they're getting is XP.

If you want to finesse things, you could use an EL calculator, or try some sort of weighted average.

 

[noeuphoria]

All that he'll lose is the physical stats, flight, and the natural weapons.

No, you lose (su) and (ex) abilities that are dependent on certain parts of your anatomy that you no longer have. A beholder loses his eye rays if he polymorphs into a human; a snake loses its ability to constrict likewise, the dragon wouldn't have his breath weapon or natural attacks. Come to think of it, I would rule that their fear aura is a byproduct of their massive size and reputation, so they wouldn't get that, either.

 

[Rkhet]

Fear, okay, but I don't agree about the breath weapon. Dragon Disciples get it, and they're humans. That must mean that it is physically possible for humans to get breath-weapons. It's just that they normally do not.

All PC races are templates. Otherwise you could shapeshift into a lvl15 PC with 18 on all stats.

 

[moritheil]

Fear, okay, but I don't agree about the breath weapon. Dragon Disciples get it, and they're humans. That must mean that it is physically possible for humans to get breath-weapons. It's just that they normally do not.

All PC races are templates. Otherwise you could shapeshift into a lvl15 PC with 18 on all stats.

Dragon disciples are half-dragons. They get wings, a tail, etc. by the time they're done.

 

[Rkhet]

Hmmm. Good point.