Craft or Profession?

[der_kluge]

Whoa, Drawmack, I never said that. I said that slapping meat on a grill is cooking, and that doesn't require any kind of craft() skill check. I can totally respect the level of detail, and training that goes into a fine culinary masterpiece. Obviously the DC for slapping a steak on a grill would be fairly low if all you wanted to do was cook the botulism out of it.

Given that, do you feel like cooking should be a Craft() skill, or a Profession()? By using the rules in the Craft skill, that $100 meal that my wife and I had on our anniversary should have taken a week to prepare. It didn't, so that doesn't seem right.

And if a meal has a preparation DC of 20, how would that be different from a MW meal? What would a MW meal look like versus just a regular meal with a really high DC?

So, if you think Cooking should be a craft() skill check, if I play in your game, and make a character with a few ranks of cooking, are you going to make me calculate the cost of the deer the party ranger killed in silver pieces, and then calculate the amount of progress I make on making venison stew on a day by day basis to see how long it takes me to make it?

Or, is my character going to have ranks in profession(cooking) and you would just assign some flat DC, like 8 to make a venison stew?

Which would you rather do? Which makes more sense?

My point is, some things in this game make a heck of a lot more sense as Professions, not Crafts.

 

[der_kluge]

Nah cause the food has a higher DC and a higher market value - doesn't that make it masterwork there spazo?

And to specifically answer your question - no. It just means that it has a higher DC.

Which would you rather eat:
A MW meal that had a DC of 15
or a regular meal that had a DC of 25?

How do you even begin to rate that?

The words "masterwork" and food make no sense being in the same sentence.

 

[Pax]

I disagree. I can't paint for crap. Oh sure, I could probably paint a landscape of some mediocre quality, but there'd be no way I could paint a face, or a person, especially not a good one, and especially not one with any sort of expression. That takes skill. Is it charisma based? I don't think so. I don't have a problem lumping it into performance (it ends up being a separate skill anyway, so why not call a spade a spade?) But I don't think it should be based on charisma.

A painting needn't be technically accurate, to be an effective "performance". Look at anything by Picasso, or Salvadore Dali.

Heck, a lot of Monet's works are blurry "messes" IMO, even though he could put in LOTS of PRECISE detail (in the Boston Musem of Fine Arts are several of his pieces -- someo fhte Water Lilies paintings, which are definitely "blurry messes" but still aesthetically pleasing ... and one of a woman in a red dress, with a dwarf ... which could be a design on the dress, or could be actually standing in front of the woman ... either one works. A wonderful visual illusion, which takes obvious, great skill.

But it's no better a "performance" than someof his Water Lilies "blurry mess" paintings, which do NOT evince any especial <b>skill</b> in applying paint to canvas.

I don't know. Is it MW? Subject to debate, I suppose, or one could argue it's just bread with a high DC. But, I think when you talk about the preparation of food, etc., you've ceased becoming a baker, and now you're more into chef.

A different cook has prpared the meat stuffing. The baker is responsible for the shell, he just ladels the meats in before baking.

Which I would also argue is still just a profession. If a butcher is a profession, does it require a Craft() skill to take it and slap it onto a grill to cook it? By your reasoning, it would since it's taking a raw material and fashioning it into a finished product.

Actually, in true medieval style, it's taking meat, spices, and other things, and cooking them in such a way as to kill the lingering taste of rot. And I'm not talking about a simple steak here, I'm talking the sorts of things that would grace a noble lord's table.

So, it's ok for a scribe to make ink, and paper, but a mason can't make any bricks? Must be a union job.

So, we have Craft(Brickmaking) and Craft(Mason). Odd.

Not at all. There are lots of different sizes, qualities, purposes, and soon when it comes to bricks. Making them, and putting them together into a wall, are two different skills entirely.

A mason also probably knows how to handle concrete pouring. He can lay bricks, assemble stone walls, and so on. He can build walls with mortar, or the components cna be dry laid. He can build around needed window- and door-openings, construct certain types of doors (largely the hidden kind), assemble bridges, aqueducts, castle walls, tall towers, and so on.

But making bricks ... he might just think that beneath him.

So who makes the mortar?

THAT, the mason probably makes.

 

[Drawmack]

Whoa, Drawmack, I never said that. I said that slapping meat on a grill is cooking, and that doesn't require any kind of craft() skill check. I can totally respect the level of detail, and training that goes into a fine culinary masterpiece. Obviously the DC for slapping a steak on a grill would be fairly low if all you wanted to do was cook the botulism out of it.

Right and what you're describing is an average ordinary meal. Now if I were to take that same piece of meat and make a wonderful stogenauf out of it, wouldn't that be a better meal maybe even masterwork?

Given that, do you feel like cooking should be a Craft() skill, or a Profession()? By using the rules in the Craft skill, that $100 meal that my wife and I had on our anniversary should have taken a week to prepare. It didn't, so that doesn't seem right.

You haven't worked in a lot of restaurants have you? I didn't take them a week to put it on your table from the moment you ordered it but how long did it take to prepare everything so the chef could have it on your table in 10 mintues. In a kitchen over 90% of the work is done before the meal is ordered.

[qoute]And if a meal has a preparation DC of 20, how would that be different from a MW meal? What would a MW meal look like versus just a regular meal with a really high DC?[/quote]
The difference between masterwork and regular is in the usage of the raw materials. So let's say that we both make stew, but I make a masterwork stew and you make a regular stew. We will start with the same ingredients but I will spend more time and care on my stew. In the end we will both have stew but I will have a stew that is heartier, more robust, better tasting and just an all around better stew. That is what makes something masterwork.

So, if you think Cooking should be a craft() skill check, if I play in your game, and make a character with a few ranks of cooking, are you going to make me calculate the cost of the deer the party ranger killed in silver pieces, and then calculate the amount of progress I make on making venison stew on a day by day basis to see how long it takes me to make it?

A dear must be bled for 1 week before it can be butchered unless you're making blood stew. Then it must be butchered taking another coupld of days. After this the meat can be cooked and served. My rangers to run around hunting anything larger then rabits because I know what it entails to butcher meat. You're not killing a dear and eating it for dinner.

Or, is my character going to have ranks in profession(cooking) and you would just assign some flat DC, like 8 to make a venison stew?

nope, though he may have ranks in profession(Restauranteer) but that won't help him actually prepare the food.

Which would you rather do? Which makes more sense?

I would rather it be a profession but this is the rules forum so what I would rather does not matter. The craft makes more sense.

My point is, some things in this game make a heck of a lot more sense as Professions, not Crafts.

I'm not disagreeing in general, I'm disagreeing in specific. COOKING IS A CRAFT

 

[der_kluge]

I'm not disagreeing in general, I'm disagreeing in specific. COOKING IS A CRAFT

Not in my games it isn't.

 

[der_kluge]

A painting needn't be technically accurate, to be an effective "performance". Look at anything by Picasso, or Salvadore Dali.

[...]

But it's no better a "performance" than someof his Water Lilies "blurry mess" paintings, which do NOT evince any especial <b>skill</b> in applying paint to canvas.

I've seen Monet's "Water Lillies" so I can appreciate the "performance" of that piece (actually several pieces).

But, my point is that Perform() is a Charisma based skill. People have charisma, not paintings. So, for someone to affect me with their charisma, they need to be present for that to happen. Monet is, last I heard, dead. So, he obviously can not affect me with his presence. He can, affect me with his skill at a brush, and has on several occasions when I have seen his paintings.

Art is a skill. I suppose one could argue that the process of making art is a performance. Jackson Pollack certainly represented that. But after it is complete, it is the skill we admire, not the performance that went into creating it. Performance is a present-tense thing.

 

[Ogwar]

Well, that Anniversary meal of $100, probably did take a week to prepare, the actual process of cooking the meal was done in a few hours, but gathering the ingredients, allowing the veal to hang for ten days to make sure the meat is tender as possible, the curing of salted meats.....

There are a lot of things we take for granted in the modern world that I do not see taking place in our fantasy setting. Eggs can be refrigerated here...In my fantasy world the cooks have to get their ingredients every day. So there whould be masterwork food, and it should cost 100gp. After all those truffles came all the way from the Elven city of Granskwood, and that cream puff desert was blessed by the Priests of Pelor to shine with golden light after each bite.

and those really are flakes of gold in the wine....

 

[der_kluge]

Yes, I understand all that, but tell me what shipping eggs from one city to another has to do with cooking a meal? It's a completely unrelated process. And how do you correlate shipping 1,000 dozen eggs from one city to another for 1,000 different chefs to use each of those dozen eggs to prepare different meals. *How* does the Craft() skill account for that?

Craft() assumes you've already got all the ingredients you need sitting right in front of you. So, for cooking a meal, all the stuff is already on the counter like in a cooking show. They don't start off by saying, "To make this omelet, first we order a dozen eggs from the chicken coop". It's not part of the "process".

Just like when Norm Abrams builds a piece of furniture he doesn't start off by saying, "first, we drive to the lumber yard..." No, it's all already there. THAT's when his craft begins - when he picks up the first raw material and begins crafting it into something else. That's the way the formula works. It does not include time for transporting goods from one city to the other, and the cost does not include taxes that are levied against it by crossing international boundaries.

When a DM asks his player to make a Craft() skill check, the DM assumes he already has all the pieces. The Craft() check does not include the act of gathering the pieces. That would be... well, absurd.

 

[Pax]

I've seen Monet's "Water Lillies" so I can appreciate the "performance" of that piece (actually several pieces).

But, my point is that Perform() is a Charisma based skill. People have charisma, not paintings. So, for someone to affect me with their charisma, they need to be present for that to happen.

So, you have never been moved by a powerful, masterful performance by an "A-list" actor in a well-written movie, or recorded play?

You have never been moved by a powerful, persuasive story, article, or other written presentation? Poetry holds no charm for you, it cannot evoke an emotional response in you?

[qote]Monet is, last I heard, dead. So, he obviously can not affect me with his presence. He can, affect me with his skill at a brush, and has on several occasions when I have seen his paintings.[/b][/quote]

One need not be alive and present, to affect anotehrs' emotions. A performance need not be live, to be performance ... the act of fixing that performance in a physical, unchanging form does not render it a mere display of passionless, purely-technical skill.

Art is a skill. I suppose one could argue that the process of making art is a performance.

And one's art reflects that process. The quality of the end product is directly related to the quality of effort put into the process of making that end product.

Jackson Pollack certainly represented that. But after it is complete, it is the skill we admire, not the performance that went into creating it. Performance is a present-tense thing.

Speak for yourself. I admire the passion, the emotion, and the thought-provocation of a piece of art. You can make a perfect picture of someone with a cemera.

A good photographer (an artist whose medium is photography), however, does more -- and it's not just skill. Sure, skill helps with picking filters, angles, lighting, and so on.

However, there's a certain ephemeral, human aspect that factors in. Choosing the backgrounds, the non-focal elements of the image, talking the people who will be the subjects of the photo into he right emotive state, and CAPTURING it all at just the right moment.

And photography is, IMO, one of hte most-mechanical, least-emotive forms of art there is. Yet still, I would call a photographer an artist, and his photographs a kind of performance-in-fixed-media.

I'll ask again -- does the act of recording a song, mean the singer is not giving a performance ... ? Does it matter if you hear the recording while the singer is present, or decades after his or her death?

Craft() assumes you've already got all the ingredients you need sitting right in front of you. So, for cooking a meal, all the stuff is already on the counter like in a cooking show. They don't start off by saying, "To make this omelet, first we order a dozen eggs from the chicken coop". It's not part of the "process".

However, many of what WE modern-convenience-glutted people would consider "an ingredient" ... a person with craft(cooking) would have had to prepare. We can just buy a bottle of nice, purified olive oil. THEY would possibly have had to press the bloody olives themselves, or at the least, purify it themselves.

We can take down some spices in nice convenient little jars, and sprinkle them in. THEY woudl have to dr the spices properly themselves.

We can use pre-packaged sauces, dressings, and so on. THEY had tomake it all from scratch. UTTERLY from scratch.

Just like when Norm Abrams builds a piece of furniture he doesn't start off by saying, "first, we drive to the lumber yard..."

Actually ... yes, he does. He often comments on the process of selecting a good, quality piece of wood -- and has described that, on numerous occasions, as being a critical part of the process of making X piece of furniture.

He won't just take any old hunk of wood; he'll recommend several good types, give you advice on what to look for, and usually close with a comment to the effect that most reputable lumberyards will be happy to help find you the right kind of wood for your project, if you ask.

No, it's all already there. THAT's when his craft begins - when he picks up the first raw material and begins crafting it into something else.

No offense, but I begin to think you've never MADE anything that wasn't half-prepared in a box, already.

See above; mister Abrams would consider his work to begin not when he starts cuttiong, but in his case, when he PLANS the shape of the piece he will make ... and he would consider the process of his craft to CONTINUE through to his visit to various lumberyards and hardware stores looking for the right parts and pieces.

When a DM asks his player to make a Craft() skill check, the DM assumes he already has all the pieces. The Craft() check does not include the act of gathering the pieces. That would be... well, absurd.

I strongly suggest you read up on the ACTUAL processes of making the various things I have described as craft skills.

The rules on this are clear: if you make a physical end product, it's generally a craft skill. If you don't, it's generally a profession skill. In a preindustrial society, most jobs other than farmer would involve craft skills.

Stop being stuck on wether or not you canmake a masterwork version of the product. Not everything HAS a masterwork version. There are, for example, no masterwork Torches.

 

[der_kluge]

I can see that we're just going to have to disagree with each other on this, and that's fine.

Perform() is a charisma-based skill, and acting, singing, and oratory are already part of that. In the new rules, "artist" is not. And I don't feel like it should be.

Photography is art, yes. And obviously art is art, but these are not "performance" arts. Acting, singing, dancing, singing - these are all performances, and thus are relegated, quite accurately, under the Perform() category.

Painting a picture, taking a picture, and writing a poem are not performances.

Now, "reading" a poem, that's a performance, and would fall under Perform(Oratory) quite nicely. Because reading a poem takes as much skill as writing a poem.

But, IMC, language is a separate skill, in which you can have ranks in. If you want to write a poem, that would be a language skill check, and a high one, I might add. Everyone starts with 10 ranks in common, which is enough for every day use. If you want to write legal documents, or write poetry, that's a higher skill check. Not everyone puts 20 ranks into common, but if you want to write legal documents or poetry - you do. Shakespeare, for example, would be someone with 20 ranks in Common (or Olde English, as it where..)


As for selecting the raw ingredients - its not part of the Craft skill. If I tell my DM I want to make a spyglass, but I'm standing in the middle of the desert, no matter how good my Craft() skill is, I can't make that spyglass.