D&D 4E Crafting... can anyone make anything in 4E?

[Moochava]

If crafting is such an important part of your game, skill challenges are the way to go: skill challenges are there to provide as much focus as possible on something that isn't combat. I like the nature/dungeoneering/streetwise divide. I'd also be tempted to rope heal in there for creating medicines.

Give everything one can craft in your game a complexity of 1-5 and use that to define the skill challenge. At least one person must roll a success on on appropriate skill (nature for wood and bone, dungeoneering for stone and metal, streetwise for luxuries, heal for medicines, poultices, and maybe sewing); other than that, people contribute however they want. A successful roll means that the item is crafted; a failed roll means that things go wrong and you don't get the item. If things go wrong quickly, it probably went wrong in the butchering/harvest phase; if things go wrong only at the end, it probably went wrong in the building phase. For a failure, throw a relevant encounter at the party, from bears attracted to the smell of meat to angry neighbors smashing the smithy because it makes too much noise.

That assumes that crafting is as important to your game as, say, combat; that is, it's a major occupation for the characters. If it's not, people are right to say just to glide over it--unless it's contributing to the game, you're just rolling craft checks for atmosphere's sake.

 

[Eluxis]

In our low-magic, early stone age campaign the Crafting skills are a critical component. Unfortunately it looks like there's no way to actually craft anything in 4th. I understand that my own campaign is probably far from the norm, but what about the more typical weapon or armorsmithing dwarf? What about tinkerers and such? It seems kind of a gross oversight to me, or are the rules for it simply hidden away somewhere I haven't seen yet?

Thanks!

I think "gross oversight" may be taking it to a bit of an extreme. There is no possible way to cover every aspect that a gaming group could come up with. Some groups will rarely if ever use crafting, cooking, animal training...I could go on and on. All groups will have combat at one time or another. Crafting, to me, is one of those aspects that a specific set of rules won't make the game better, because different groups will prefer different levels of detail to their particular needs with a crafting system.

Your campaign sounds awesome, by the way. I hope you can find or make a set of crafting rules for your game that does it justice.

 

[Celebrim]

I think "gross oversight" may be taking it to a bit of an extreme. There is no possible way to cover every aspect that a gaming group could come up with. Some groups will rarely if ever use crafting, cooking, animal training...I could go on and on.

Yet, 3rd edition managed to have a basic set of rules. I think 'gross oversight' is appropriate when some percentage of your existing fanbase is using rules subsystems that you end up throwing out with the bathwater.

All groups will have combat at one time or another.

I'm not entirely sure how true that is. I've heard of groups where combat is probably as rare as crafting is in most campaigns. Granted, they weren't playing D&D, but stilll.

Crafting, to me, is one of those aspects that a specific set of rules won't make the game better, because different groups will prefer different levels of detail to their particular needs with a crafting system.

The same could be said of the combat system.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Arravis, I think a good Feat + Mundane Ritual system would be the best 4E mechanic for Craft skills. I want to build on Celebrim's idea of tiered Crafting feats.

carpenter -> shipwright
carpenter -> joiner
wood carver -> bowyer
whitesmith -> silversmith/goldsmith
silversmith/goldsmith + stone polisher -> jeweler
blacksmith -> weaponsmith
blacksmith + animal handler -> farrier
carpenter + blacksmith -> plowright

And so forth.

These probably aren't the appropriate feats for your Stone Age campaign, but you could have "Flint Worker" lead to "Spearmaker", or whatever you think works better. The idea is that different kinds of Crafts have the equivalent of a "Ritual Caster" feat.

Once you have the appropriate feat, you can learn non-magical "Rituals", such as "Make A Weapon" or "Mark Armor." The Ritual would specify the costs/materials needed, the amount of time necessary, and the eventual product. Same examples follow:

Feats
Woodworker I:
Requirements: None
Description: You know the basics of working with wood.
Benefit: Given the appropriate tools you can learn Mundane Rituals with the Woodworker I requirement.

Spear-Fitter:
Requirements: Woodworker I (feat)
Description: You know how to fashion the wooden parts of weapons, including knife and axe handles, spear shafts, spear-throwers and bows.
Benefit: Given the appropriate tools you can learn Mundane Rituals with the Spear-Fitter requirement.

Rituals
Doors, Chests & Barrels:
Requirements: Woodworker I (feat)
Description: You can fashion the wooden items bound with metal.
Materials (Cost): Aged hardwood (10% of Market Price), iron bands (20% MP), Nails (20% MP).
Time: Market Price (sp)/5 Days
Product: A door, barrel, chest or similar wooden object.


EDIT: I should also point that I think acquiring these Feats should be separate from class level progression. You can't balance the classes if Fighter A takes all Fighter Feats and Fighter B takes Basket Weaving. These "Craft Feats" should be acquired by spending time learning from an appropriate master craftsman or self-study, without imposing any cost on leveling up (other than "That's time I could have been adventuring.")

 

[77IM]

Here's my suggestion. I'm something of a house rules minimalist so the idea of creating a wide variety of feats for crafting, or using skill challenges, doesn't sit well with me. In addition, I like to encapsulate my house rules into feats (they're easier to refer to on a character sheet).

Please let me know what you think. I just made this up so some of the time/value conversion might be way off. My goal was to have an open-ended skill list that allowed people to make mundane items and small sums of money in a very short time period, but was financially vastly inferior to killing monsters and taking their stuff.



BACKGROUND SKILL
Benefit: You are trained in two background skills. What qualifies as a background skill is ultimately up to the DM, but may include crafting skills (such as armorsmith, baker, boyer, carpenter, chandler, fletcher, haberdasher, leatherworker, tailor, weaponsmith), professional skills (such as accountant, bartender, clerk, farmer, horse trainer, lawyer, mercenary, merchant, sailor, scribe), knowledge about a particular area (no larger than a city or a region of the countryside), skills pertaining to social groups or status (such as noble etiquette, heraldry, military procedures, traditions of a particular tribe or ethnic group) or any other specialized form of knowledge that isn't well represented by normal skills, but isn't terribly useful during an adventure either. Your DM decides whether a background skill is appropriate to the campaign, and which ability score it uses as a key ability (typically, Intelligence or Wisdom).

You get a +2 bonus on any normal skill checks or ability checks related to one of your background skills. You can also make background skill checks:

Background Skill Check: 1d20 + 1/2 your level + the key ability of your background skill + 5 (if trained) + 3 (if focussed)

The DM sets the DC of the background skill check, and determines the effects of a successful check. In general, background skills let you know information relevant to your background, similar to a knowledge skill, and may be required to perform specialized tasks relating to your background. The DM may allow you to make an untrained background skill check for a background skill you don't have, which is the same as an ability check. However, the very nature of background skills means that many tasks associated with them require specific training and can't be attempted untrained.

If your background skill is one which can be used to make a profit, you can make skill checks to try to earn a living. Each week that you practice your craft, you can spend 10sp on raw materials, and then make a background skill check. You earn 1sp per point of your result (so if your result is less than 10, you actually lose money this week). If you want, you can instead spend 15gp on raw materials, and earn 1gp per point of your result (but you must make this decision before making your background skill check). Your trade may have additional requirements to be profitable -- for example, a merchant needs a market to buy and sell goods, and won't earn any money in an uninhabited wasteland. A sailor needs to spend some time sailing, etc. You can Take 10 on the check if you are earning sp, but not if you are earning gp -- high-stakes industries are a bit more volatile than everyday enterprises.

If you are crafting items, you can decide to keep the items instead of selling them on the open market. You need to state ahead of time what sort of item or items you are crafting, and the money you would have earned from background skill checks instead represents progress you are making on the item. When you've earned enough money through background skill checks to cover half the cost of the item, the item is completed. (Any excess money earned can be converted into more items or kept as money.) The DM can rule that certain items are more or less expensive to craft than their market price would indicate; for instance, the cost of crafting ritual components is equal to the cost of the components (not half price). You can't use background skill checks to create magic items, but you can create mundane items and then use the Enchant Magic Item ritual on them.

Example: Hrothbert the dwarf wants to create a magical suit of armor. He is level 13 and trained in Background Skill (Armorsmithing), which is based upon Strength (the DM decided that force of your arm and the quality of your training matters more than raw Intelligence when working armor), and has a Strength of 19. His total Background Skill (Armorsmithing) modifier is +15 (6 for 1/2 his level + 4 for his Strength + 5 for being trained). Hrothbert rents a forge and buys some iron, for a total cost of 15gp, and spends a week hammering away. He rolls an 8 on 1d20 for a total check result of 23. Since he is making platemail, which normally costs 50gp, he needs to score 25gp worth of check results to complete the armor. Hrothbert is 2gp shy (he's got a nearly full set of platemail -- it just needs a little more work on the ankle guards) so he spends another week, another 15gp, and rolls a 16, for a total result of 31gp worth of crafting. That's enough to finish the platemail and produce another 29gp worth of armor -- so he decides to make 29gp worth of guantlets and sells them immediately, pocketing 29gp of profits (these sales are part of the normal activity of being an armorsmith and doesn't take up any extra time or energy). Hrothbert has spent a total of 1gp (29gp worth of profits, minus 15gp weekly expenses x 2 weeks) to produce his platemail. Finally, since Hrothbert has the Ritual Caster feat and knows the Enchant Magic Item ritual, he goes out and buys 17,000gp worth of alchemical reagents. He then spends an hour performing Enchant Magic Item on the platemail, turning it into +3 mountain platemail, a level 13 item and dwarven specialty.

Special: All characters start with this feat at 1st level. You can use the normal retraining rules to change which two background skills you know. By spending feat slots, you can select this feat multiple times, adding two new background skills each time. You can select "Skill Focus (Background Skills)" as a feat, in which case the +3 bonus from Skill Focus applies to all your background skills.

 

[The Little Raven]

non combat skills.

So, History is a combat skill?

Those cut-throat professors.

 

[GnomeWorks]

So, History is a combat skill?

Those cut-throat professors.

Duh.

Haven't you seen Indiana Jones?

 

[The Little Raven]

Duh.

Haven't you seen Indiana Jones?

I see. So, when Indy pulls his gun and shoots the swordsman in Raiders of the Lost Ark, that's a History check for him to remember the old adage "Live by the sword, die by the sword."

 

[fnwc]

Maybe its just me... but it seems that the rules only seem to care about combat and combat is probably the rarest thing in our campaign.

This is not a criticism only genuine advice: if combat is the rarest thing in your campaign, D&D is probably the wrong system for you. I think there are better systems out there for non-combat centric games.

After all, most of the rules of the system center around combat. Of course, nothing is stopping people from adding on whatever subsystems they want to devise, but the core of the system is combat.

Neither way of playing is better than the other -- but if you're going to dig a ditch, it's best to use a shovel, not a broom.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yet, 3rd edition managed to have a basic set of rules. I think 'gross oversight' is appropriate when some percentage of your existing fanbase is using rules subsystems that you end up throwing out with the bathwater.

4ed DOES have those rules. There's an entire page that's dedicated to eyeballing DCs, and it handles whether those checks are being made with a skill or not.

Really, if your campaign could cope with the dirty bathwater that the old crafting rules were, then you're advanced enough to come up with some new rules if you deem them necessary.

On the topic of referring to the lack of crafting rules as a 'gross oversight':
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/6/13/