D&D 4E Crafting... can anyone make anything in 4E?

[erik_the_guy]

Did you see the crafting rules in 3rd edition? They went on for pages. They weren't included in this because simplicity is less daunting to newcomers. If its a special need for your campaign you can add some skills to make it accessible.
In my opinion crafting is a waste of time for heroic characters. Especially when the most expensive armor costs 50 gp. You won't be saving a lot of money.
As far as crafting the paragon and epic tier armors, I think the devotion and time required makes these things is best left to NPCs and retired PCs, you can make rulings as you like there if you are the DM though.

 

[Jhulae]

Did you see the crafting rules in 3rd edition? They went on for pages.

And they worked like... well... crap. I saw so many different 'new' variations of crafting rules printed up. Some of the variants (the better ones) didn't even resemble closely the 'core' crafting rules, except for the use of crafting skills.

And, it looks like with 4th Edition, they decided against putting them in. Because seriously, there was *no* need to add another mess of rules that other people on the Internet are going to toss out and re-create in a better fashion.

For 4e crafting rules, I seriously suggest just waiting a month or two. Someone will have a houserule up that will do the job better than a stock rule would have.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Compared with the previous... oh, look. A paragraph of rules for covering crafting, which didn't work to produce a coherent system. Yeah, sure lost a lot there.

Numerous other things were lost, as well. Forgery, disguise, etc.

No, the argument is that you should, like the 4e designers most likely did, go through a design process.

...which is a rather time-consuming and difficult process.

From where I'm standing, 4e was already on shaky ground. When it became apparent that numerous things were going to need to be houseruled in is when I said: screw this, I'm writing my own system.

I've been asking if the "we roll dice a lot" bit is really needed for the fun.

Is it for combat?

If combat : your game :: crafting : my game, then wouldn't it make sense that the mechanics of crafting in my game should be at least as mechanically-detailed as combat in yours? I'm not saying they need to be identical, but the level of complexity, detail, and options should be similar.

Eh? "Here is a comic where someone used the word appalling to describe a game score, and the comic makes fun of this fact. I tie it to your use of the phrase 'gross oversight'". Hardly a personal attack. Hardly thinly veiled.

I did not say that.

And fair enough. Perhaps I read too much into it. My apologies.

I find it odd that the small minority lamenting the absence of role-playing in 4e also claim to have absolutely no idea how to do it without pages of rules to cover every single detail.

Crafting != RP.

Perhaps you view crafting as a "do it, whatever, move on," sort of thing, but it may play more of a role than that in other games. There is nothing wrong with the idea of a game in which your ability to craft and maintain equipment is just as important as your ability to use it, at which point crafting rules should move from a "background skill, do whatever with it" to a more involved system.

As I have already said, where you see fault, I see feature. The designers spelled it out clearly that this is what they wanted to do. It is what they did. It is not a fault or weakness of the system that there isn't a subsystem for -insert whatever-. The many subsystems of 3e were responsible for some of the most ridiculous of the RAW abuses, like the "infinite gold exploit" and some of the ridiculously broken combinations that arose from blending the later alternate casting/magic systems with the core D&D magic systems. Subsystems tend to create problems and corner cases, which then need solutions, which then need more solutions...

Your analogy is off-base, but at this point, I don't see a point in further arguing with you.

We disagree. You see feature, I see fault. Let's leave it at that.

In my opinion crafting is a waste of time for heroic characters. Especially when the most expensive armor costs 50 gp. You won't be saving a lot of money.

I think you're missing the point.

If you want more involved crafting rules in a system, it is generally not so that players can avoid the costs of items.

 

[drachasor]

Is it for combat?

If combat : your game :: crafting : my game, then wouldn't it make sense that the mechanics of crafting in my game should be at least as mechanically-detailed as combat in yours? I'm not saying they need to be identical, but the level of complexity, detail, and options should be similar.

Well then, what were you using before 4E?

Edit: Hmm, you aren't the OP, and looking over this thread it almost seems like you are trolling. Certainly you aren't helping the OP (who has seemed to appreciate what has been said by others overall). Well, I'll ponder this after I get some sleep.

 

[Aaron L]

The 1st Edition DMG has an excellent table of how long it takes to make certain things.

 

[Falling Icicle]

The Rule 0 Fallacy: "If you can fix it, it's not broken."

Since Craft rules were provided in previous editions of the game, people have every right to complain that there aren't any in this edition. Hopefully WotC will take note and provide craft rules in a future book, PHB2 perhaps.

 

[Unkor]

Carpenter: "Hey, look at this, I just built this nice box, neat huh?"
"It doesn't have apples in it, it should have apples"
"But, what if the person who bought the box wanted to put newspapers or screws in it?"
"That is an invalid response to the lack of apples oversight."
"But you could just put apples in the box if you wanted"
"I shouldn't have to, the box should have been built with apples already inside. Telling me to put apples in the box myself is just an attempt to cover up your own failure to build a box of apples."
"I just thought that a simple, straight forward box would be useful to the widest number of people. All it requires is a little thought to use it for anything you could use a box for. I even included a pamphlet of the many uses of a box"
"Dude, you completely failed at making a box of apples."
"but...but...I wasn't trying to make a box of apples..."
"Exactly!

I like.

 

[The Little Raven]

I had a chat with one of my players who enjoyed the concept of crafting, but wasn't particularly fond of the skill point expenditure and or the fact that all Craft skills relied on Intelligence. She asked me to write up something for her to play with, so here's the basic shell of what I came up with in 10 minutes last night.

Craftsman
Prerequisite: A score of 13+ in an appropriate ability score
Benefit: You can master crafting plans of your level or lower. When you gain this feat, you select a category of crafting in which you excel. You gain a +5 bonus to ability score checks when crafting items of that category.
Blacksmithing (STR): You can forge items from metal, such as weapons, armor, or tools. Requires Smelted Metal.
Leatherworking (DEX): You can craft items from leather and hides, such as clothing, armor, and bags. Requires Tanned Hide.
Tailoring (INT): You can craft items from cloth, such as clothing, cloaks, and cloth armor. Requires Woven Cloth.
Woodworking (DEX): You can craft items from wood, such as bows, arrows, and staves. Requires Cut Timber.
Special: You gain three crafting plans of the appropriate category to know.

Diverse Craftsman
Prerequisite: A score of 13+ in an appropriate ability score, Craftsman
Benefit: You gain another category of crafting to be specialized in, gaining a +5 bonus on ability checks with that category.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, it applies to a new category of crafting.

Individual crafting "plans" would be like rituals in that they have a market cost to learn, then a component cost (which must be in the proper form for the crafting type).

I'm not entirely sure how many categories and types of components to add, nor am I entirely sure about all the ability scores that would be appropriate. Comments?

 

[Eluxis]

The Rule 0 Fallacy: "If you can fix it, it's not broken."

Since Craft rules were provided in previous editions of the game, people have every right to complain that there aren't any in this edition. Hopefully WotC will take note and provide craft rules in a future book, PHB2 perhaps.

Or how about putting out The Guide to Crafting? People who absolutely must have hard and solid rules for crafting can by it, those who don't need it can abstain, and WOTC can make more money in the process.

Full of win for everyone.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I, for one, agree that 4e seems to focus first and foremost on combat (and any rules that don't have an applicable role in combat or social encounters are either glossed over or omitted entirely).

I think that's one of the best features about 4E. The game gives you the rules you need, and does not force other rules upon you.

For example, there are no rules for determining height and weight. This is as close as 4e gets: "Each race description in Chapter 3 gives the average height and weight for a character of that race. You can decide for your character to be above or below average." In other words, you just pick what works best for you, and go.

That's a minor example. But the same philosophy extends to your background, and other roleplaying details. It's all part of 4e's assumption that you and your friends are best able to sort out those details, if you wish.

So if you want to be a world famous blacksmith--and your friends (other players and DM) are cool with it--then make it so! That's awesome. Go for it. This ability doesn't affect the mechanics (D&D is a game of heroic adventure game), so if you and your pals think such an ability is fun, roll with it.

I *love* this level of trust. It really frees up the roleplaying possibilities. If you want to start the game as an accomplished professional, you can. If you want to start as an elderly wizard, you can. As long as you and your pals all think it's cool and fun, 4E isn't going to get in your way.

"But what about rules? I want to know how *good* of a blacksmith I am! How long does it take to make a sword? Can I get rich selling swords?"

Figure it out with your DM and the other players. But remember that D&D is not a medieval economic simulator. You and the other people at the table got together tonight to spend their valuable free time plundering dungeons, killing monsters, and negotiating with djinn. It's unlikely anyone's going to want to listen to you describe pounding iron into a flat, sharp shape. And everyone will just roll their eyes if you say "Johan Smith is going to spend a year making and selling swords, so I get rich, and buy lots of rad magic items!!!11!one!"

No. Just figure out a background that's fun and reasonable, and get on with the adventure.