D&D 4E Crafting... can anyone make anything in 4E?

[WalterKovacs]

There are structures in place to vaguely define how to take the system 'as is' and roughly translate it into a non-magical crafting based campaign.

The most important things to 'keep' are the "magical" bonuses from weapons [to attacks and damage] and the magical [and masterwork] qualitiy of the armor.

Now, you can easily refluff things so that it is improved quality allowing for the more powerful items. This makes sense, as the RELATIVE costs of the items should stay the same. I emphasize relative because to make it 'fit' in a low-magic setting, and/or a poor setting, having the players receive less money, and not be able to afford [or find] much in the way of magical items, you can reduce the treasure "payouts" ... you just need to reduce costs to a similar extent.

The "system" of sell your stuff for 1/5 and/or turn your stuff into 1/5 of the material components for something else should still be used. For example, killing monsters and taking their metal armor, you could melt them down and reforge them into new armor. If it was high quality [i.e. pseudo-magic] you could use your crafting ability to resize the armor, as the enchant magic item ritual allows people to do in a "default" setting.

If arcane/divine characters are involved, you'll have to come up with a way to keep their implements "magical" to some extent. Perhaps it's an inherent bonus the casters receive, or implements are some of the few magical items that exist. Removing daily powers from weapons and armor would probably mean you should also eliminate them from the implements for balance, but it's up to you.

Speaking of which, the other important part of the economy is the treasure packets. Basically, they allow a DM to give the players items above their level, while a party should rarely be able to afford to buy items above their level because of the combination of costs scaling upwards, and selling items for very little. This gives the DM a control element. They control the "best" items the players get, while the players can choose to buy the exact item they want, if it is of their level [that is what the monetary treasure is for]. So it allows them to be able to share the balance of "power".

So the crafting rules will likely be heavily based on the costs. While a skill requirement can prevent someone from making items "above their level" ... it doesn't actually prevent them from making tons of the items they can make. Thus, money is the factor that prevents them from just spamming out the armor ... and the fact that they can't find many people willing to pay them for their work.

That would be the final piece of the puzzle. Guilds. Since the PCs are adventurer 'class', and in 4e especially, the class is truly a profession, as even a "full" multiclass taking all the feats, the paragon path of a second class and the epic destiny that allows you to pick powers from other classes ... wouldn't be able to, for example, channel divinity or apply a warlock's curse, or cast a cantrip. So, the PCs are similarly assumed not to have become crafters professionally. They'd have to go through a lot of hoops to actually join a guild. Being part of the guild would allow for cheaper access to materials, as well as the ability to sell at the 10% markup [not to mention being able to buy adventurer's "leftovers" at 1/5 the "worth"].

So, the stuff that is in place:

The scaling of items at each level, and their relative costs to each other, as well as the bonuses that they give a player to attack and damage [or to AC, etc].

The 1/5 value of selling/scrapping an existing item.

The 10% markup of buying an item from a vendor.

The "refitting" of an item to make it usable by a PC [this may not work as often as the magic item, but in the case of larger items, the ammount of workable material could be 100% of what you need to make an appropriate sized item instead of the normal 20%].

The stuff that needs to be added are the time/skill required for crafting [which includes aquiring the specific materials ... of course, they don't have rules for aquiring material components for rituals ... other than buy them, or disenchant an item]. The guild stuff is something campaign specific that could be used if the players want to make money on their items. [See also, a magic user wanting to settle down and set up a magic shop].

Ultimately, crafting rules are going to be tied to the campaign setting. Perhaps THAT is where they will appear if given by WotC. [Although they may put a preliminary one, along with the alchemy 'rituals' in the item compendium book].

 

[GnomeWorks]

Well then, what were you using before 4E?

Various books in 3.5 had more intricate rules for crafting. Not excellent, not up to the same level of detail as combat, but better than the core rules.

Edit: Hmm, you aren't the OP, and looking over this thread it almost seems like you are trolling. Certainly you aren't helping the OP (who has seemed to appreciate what has been said by others overall). Well, I'll ponder this after I get some sleep.

Yeah. Trolling. Obviously, because trying to get people to understand that some games aren't all about killing dudes and taking their stuff is trolling. I'm sorry that I'm trying to expand your horizons and get irritated when I have to argue against the same old tired arguments.

I had a chat with one of my players who enjoyed the concept of crafting, but wasn't particularly fond of the skill point expenditure and or the fact that all Craft skills relied on Intelligence. She asked me to write up something for her to play with, so here's the basic shell of what I came up with in 10 minutes last night.

...

Individual crafting "plans" would be like rituals in that they have a market cost to learn, then a component cost (which must be in the proper form for the crafting type).

I'm not entirely sure how many categories and types of components to add, nor am I entirely sure about all the ability scores that would be appropriate. Comments?

Do you want an honest response?

Look at WoW.

Seriously. While it would most likely require some amount of modification, their crafting system is fantastic, and is - IMO - the best and most interesting part of the game.

But if you want an idea of what crafting categories to use, and what sort of components and such, WoW would be a good place to start. That's where I started, when I was thinking of how to deal with crafting.

I think that's one of the best features about 4E. The game gives you the rules you need, and does not force other rules upon you.

*sigh*

Seriously. There are clearly people who do not have combat-heavy games. Some folks play D&D focused more on social encounters, or crafting, or any number of other things that aren't combat. That a good number of these people are screwed because their particular playstyle is seen as inferior or less important is greatly irritating.

You and the other people at the table got together tonight to spend their valuable free time plundering dungeons, killing monsters, and negotiating with djinn.

So, just skip all that crap between encounters, right, because it's all just meaningless fluff, and who needs it?

The game can be more than killing things and taking their stuff. If that's what you like to do, cool, have fun with that. But don't knock other folks' interpretations of the game in its previous incarnations, when their playstyles were supported, and don't knock their frustration with where the game has gone - because they're not supported anymore.

 

[Celebrim]

I think that's one of the best features about 4E. The game gives you the rules you need, and does not force other rules upon you.

Some of us find it much easier to ignore the rules we don't need or want, than it is to create the rules we do need or want.

And isn't the whole point of this thread, "Fourth edition doesn't appear to give me the rules I need?"

Perhaps you mean 4e gives you the rules you need, but it doesn't give you the rules gamers in general need. It makes no effort to be comprehensive or universal. It's rules for a particular style of play, and if you are outside the bounds of that then tough luck.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I would use the (free on the d20 SRD) 3.5 rules verbatim. Give every PC 'trained' in one craft or profession, if they want, and they can spend one of their precious trained skills from their class to get 2 more trained in craft or profession if they really want.
Problem solved

 

[drachasor]

Various books in 3.5 had more intricate rules for crafting. Not excellent, not up to the same level of detail as combat, but better than the core rules.

They crafting rules were crap in official supplements at the very least. I am not sure about all 3rd party stuff, however. It's better to not have a rule than to have a crappy rule.

Yeah. Trolling. Obviously, because trying to get people to understand that some games aren't all about killing dudes and taking their stuff is trolling. I'm sorry that I'm trying to expand your horizons and get irritated when I have to argue against the same old tired arguments.

The bread and butter of the D&D rules has always been combat. Generally the rules elsewhere have been extremely poor on many levels. The situation is much better in 4E, especially regarding social encounters. As for the trolling bit, I say that because you are having needless arguments with a lot of people that essentially agree with you. That's not attempting to expand their horizons, generally, that's just nit picking.

Do you want an honest response?

Look at WoW.

Seriously. While it would most likely require some amount of modification, their crafting system is fantastic, and is - IMO - the best and most interesting part of the game.

But if you want an idea of what crafting categories to use, and what sort of components and such, WoW would be a good place to start. That's where I started, when I was thinking of how to deal with crafting.

And there are no need to significant rules here. WoW certainly doesn't have them. Certainly there are no crafting checks, and the particular choices of ingredients are quite specific to a particular gameworld. That said, I find it odd that you say it is the most interesting part of WoW since it is one aspect of WoW that essentially leaves zero room for creative thought. It's has a reward system, but it's light and does not a good game make.

*sigh*

Seriously. There are clearly people who do not have combat-heavy games. Some folks play D&D focused more on social encounters, or crafting, or any number of other things that aren't combat. That a good number of these people are screwed because their particular playstyle is seen as inferior or less important is greatly irritating.

Such people aren't any worse off in 4E than they were before, quite frankly. If anything, they are better off. A lot of bad/unfun rules were tossed out.

So, just skip all that crap between encounters, right, because it's all just meaningless fluff, and who needs it?

The game can be more than killing things and taking their stuff. If that's what you like to do, cool, have fun with that. But don't knock other folks' interpretations of the game in its previous incarnations, when their playstyles were supported, and don't knock their frustration with where the game has gone - because they're not supported anymore.

I don't really see how you could say non-combat playstyles had better support in previous editions. Generally they had bad rules which, in fact, undermines those playstyles rather than supports them. If anything, 4E provides more support for social situations and does not undermine other areas. That's a good thing.

Anyhow, you attitude that almost everyone thinks D&D games are just for combat doesn't seem to be borne out by the people in this thread. You still seem to cling to that attitude, however. That said, combat is a very important part of the D&D rules system, people who have seldom had combat are generally are freeform roleplaying in previous editions with D&D-based gameworld as a backdrop. That's a perfectly fine and valid way to play a roleplaying game if it works for a group of course.

 

[drachasor]

Some of us find it much easier to ignore the rules we don't need or want, than it is to create the rules we do need or want.

And isn't the whole point of this thread, "Fourth edition doesn't appear to give me the rules I need?"

Perhaps you mean 4e gives you the rules you need, but it doesn't give you the rules gamers in general need. It makes no effort to be comprehensive or universal. It's rules for a particular style of play, and if you are outside the bounds of that then tough luck.

How was 3E, 2E or 1E any different in this? I'll grant that 3E pretended to have more, but all the things it had that 4E doesn't have were bad rules, as best I recollect. Crafting, in particular, was a horrible system. Better to have no rules than bad rules, I think.

I'll grant that there could be more guidelines for coming up with new systems and rules for 4E, but that was an equally large, if not larger, problem in previous editions.

As far as the OP is concerned, however, I think a crafting system for him/her is problem best left without any checks (or with minimal checks here and there). If you want it to have a similar spirit to the combat system, then just make sure the choices PCs make for weapons, materials, and other issues matter. That means that different materials would provide different benefits/drawbacks (with no material being strictly better than another). Different construction methods would be similar in this regard. Avoid making any one material or method absolutely better than any other (though you could have different tiers of materials and methods, with higher tier stuff outright better than the lower tier. For crafting though, I don't think rolls generally make it more interesting, just more annoying/frustrating. Further, since this is equipment the PCs are using, a few lucky rolls could cause one PC to perform significantly better than another, and some unlucky rolls could screw over another PC. Better to avoid that, since unlike bad luck in combat, bad equipment sticks around for a while (and extended punishment for simple bad luck generally isn't fun).

 

[silentounce]

I've found the GURPS line to often have very useful and interesting background material, but I don't own GURPS Low Tech. Any chance it could have useful background material?

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/low-tech/

THIS.

I own it. And it contains exactly what you are looking for in some respects, especially the "time to craft" info. It'd be worthwhile for you to acquire just for the background info it contains alone even if you don't plan on using the GURPS system.

 

[GnomeWorks]

And there are no need to significant rules here. WoW certainly doesn't have them. Certainly there are no crafting checks, and the particular choices of ingredients are quite specific to a particular gameworld. That said, I find it odd that you say it is the most interesting part of WoW since it is one aspect of WoW that essentially leaves zero room for creative thought. It's has a reward system, but it's light and does not a good game make.

...who seriously plays WoW for creative thought?

The crafting system is interesting and well-done.

Such people aren't any worse off in 4E than they were before, quite frankly. If anything, they are better off. A lot of bad/unfun rules were tossed out.

Yes, because we all clearly agree on what bad rules are.

I don't really see how you could say non-combat playstyles had better support in previous editions. Generally they had bad rules which, in fact, undermines those playstyles rather than supports them. If anything, 4E provides more support for social situations and does not undermine other areas. That's a good thing.

The myriad threads regarding the brokenness of skill challenges would seem to indicate that 4e has failed just as poorly as other editions, then.

Anyhow, you attitude that almost everyone thinks D&D games are just for combat doesn't seem to be borne out by the people in this thread.

Look at the number of people around here whose immediate reaction to needing crafting rules was "DM fiat, it doesn't matter," or the number of other topics where that particular response comes up in non-combat-related matters.

 

[Thasmodious]

Look at the number of people around here whose immediate reaction to needing crafting rules was "DM fiat, it doesn't matter," or the number of other topics where that particular response comes up in non-combat-related matters.

What you read into the responses is not the same thing as what people are saying. Responding that, if your game finds a need for a crafting system to make one up is not people saying "non combat is irrelevant, we live only to kill things". It's a matter of what we need a set of rules to accomplish. 4e is not focused solely on combat. It is focused on conflict resolution because that is where dice and rules need to enter the situation. It is focused around the encounter. The text even says so.

It is not a typical component of D&D games for the outcome of an encounter to require crafting, or tunneling for months through the earth or a realistic model of a real world medieval economy or any of the others things some claim are missing from 4e (why, oh why, did they get rid of the 1e Assassination Table, that was the best subsystem ever!). What they did was present a nice, concise set of rules to handle encounters and conflict and give the DM the tools he needs to adjudicate anything else that comes up. It is ridiculously easy to develop a quick craft system based off the DC by Level tables in the DMG to handle that time it comes up in the middle of the game. That the PC is a capable crafter of lyres is something that is handled through roleplaying, not mechanics. Mechanics don't have to support everything a character can do, just the things he needs to do while doing the things that characters are built to do in a D&D game.

No two gaming groups are going to agree anyway on just what is or isn't necessary, outside of combat and non combat encounter resolution, for the game to include. No matter how many subsystems are crammed into the book, gamers with your mindset will still find plenty of others missing. There were tons of things, actions, and playstyles that 3e didn't have rules to emulate. DMs who found those important made them up. And they also spent some time on the internet whining that these things were "missing" from the game, as if it can all things to all gamers. It can't. And the more it tries, the more complexities it requires, the more rules conflicts crop up between these subsystems and each other or the core rules, and the more corner cases are created and exceptions needed to "solve" them.

That the designers made a decision not to fall into this trap this time around and focus on the core gameplay elements and trust the large community of gamers, websites devoted to gaming, and 3rd party publishers to cover all these disparate playstyles. That was exactly what the 3e OGL taught them. Most of their subpar subsystems just served as launching points for the excellent group of 3rd party publishers to produce some great products that covered these niche playstyles, subsystems, etc. For example, there are some great rulesets out there for pirate/high seas fantasy games. The only way you can really do such a playstyle justice is with more than a half a page blurb in the DMG and a table or two. It requires some room and effort and the return is minimal. Not that many groups favor that playstyle. So its the perfect venue for third party publishers to cover.

This isn't a fault, or an omission, or the "influence of video games", it's a design feature and shows an understanding of D&Ds audience and the abilities and creativity of players, DMs, and the players and DMs who become third party publishers.

 

[bardolph]

How about this?

Treat Crafting with the same mechanics as Ritual Casting.

(1) Take the "Crafting" feat, which automatically grants a trained skill: Crafting (INT).

(2) Crafting individual items would require knowing the correct formula for crafting the item, having access to the correct materials and time, then making a crafting check to create the item.

(3) New formulas can be learned through books or apprenticeships, and once you learn a formula, you know it forever.

NPC crafters can be granted the Crafting feat (and accompanying skill), and whichever craft formulas are appropriate to their trade.