Crawling & Haste

[Hypersmurf]

I think the biggest misinterpretation going on here is that run, hustle, etc., are modes of movement.

Well, there's a bt of support for it

MOVEMENT

There are three movement scales, as follows.

Tactical, for combat, measured in feet (or squares) per round.
Local, for exploring an area, measured in feet per minute.
Overland, for getting from place to place, measured in miles per hour or miles per day.

Modes of Movement: While moving at the different movement scales, creatures generally walk, hustle, or run.

Walk: A walk represents unhurried but purposeful movement at 3 miles per hour for an unencumbered human.

Hustle: A hustle is a jog at about 6 miles per hour for an unencumbered human. A character moving his or her speed twice in a single round, or moving that speed in the same round that he or she performs a standard action or another move action is hustling when he or she moves.

Run (x3): Moving three times speed is a running pace for a character in heavy armor. It represents about 9 miles per hour for a human in full plate.

Run (x4): Moving four times speed is a running pace for a character in light, medium, or no armor. It represents about 12 miles per hour for an unencumbered human, or 8 miles per hour for a human in chainmail.

-Hyp.

 

[IanB]

Well, I like my version better.

I can understand the confusion a bit better now, though.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The last, crawling, is not based on speed and there is nothing in the rules that even suggests or implies this. You crawl 5 feet as a move action. It cannot be stated any more clearly.

Artoomis' point is that the Haste spell does not state that it increases the speed of the mode of movement by 30 feet, merely that it increases the mode of movement by 30 feet.

So the fact that Crawl is not based on speed is irrelevant, because (assuming one accepts Crawl as a mode of movement) the spell 'increases Crawl by 30 feet'.

This increase is to a maximum of double your normal speed for that mode of movement. This yields a problem, because 'your normal speed for Crawl' is not defined. Double -- is --; double 5 is 10; double 30 is 60; even if we allow Crawl as a 'mode of movement' and allow it to 'increase by 30 feet', that maximum is still nebulous.

-Hyp.

 

[Kieperr]

I understand Artoomis' point. Artoomis' argument for crawling being a mode of movement is based simply on the fact that crawling is discussed in the Move section under Move Actions. Swimming and climbing are discussed there as well, but these are defined modes of movement and are based on a creature's speed.

My point is that all of the modes of movement designate the use of a creature's speed to calculate how far you can move with that mode. The modes of movement include land movement, burrow, climb, fly, swim, walk, hustle, and run. Crawl does not designate the use of a creature's speed to calculate how far you can crawl nor is it defined anywhere as a mode of movement. It does not follow the basic rules shared by all modes of movement so it is not a mode of movement and is not affected by Haste. You crawl 5 feet as a move action. Period.

 

[Artoomis]

I think the most interesting thing here is that there are actually three positions on this issue:

1. Per RAW, Haste cannot be used with Crawl.
2. Per RAW, Haste applies to Crawl.
3. It's not clear in the rules and both (1) and(2) can be reasonably argued to be true, so the DM needs to make a reasonable choice.

I personally go with (3).

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'd say "Haste can be used with Crawl, with the result being 'As a move action, crawl 5 feet... with a +1 bonus to AC!'"

The only way 2 (in the sense of 'Haste makes you crawl more than 5 feet as a move action) can be true is if we assume "modes of movement increase by 30 feet" does not mean "the speed of modes of movement increase by 30 feet", which results in a creature with a 30 foot speed not running 240 feet in a round while Hasted.

Furthermore, if Haste provides an enhancement bonus of 30 feet to a mode of movement, rather than an enhancement bonus of 30 feet to speed, that means that the enhancement bonus to a mode of movement will stack with an enhancement bonus to speed, since they are affecting different things. The Haste increase will stack with a monk's speed bonus, or a Longstrider spell, or an Expeditious Retreat spell.

Given those results, I don't feel that 2 can be stated to be "reasonably" argued.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Excellent point, Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

I'd say "Haste can be used with Crawl, with the result being 'As a move action, crawl 5 feet... with a +1 bonus to AC!'"

The only way 2 (in the sense of 'Haste makes you crawl more than 5 feet as a move action) can be true is if we assume "modes of movement increase by 30 feet" does not mean "the speed of modes of movement increase by 30 feet", which results in a creature with a 30 foot speed not running 240 feet in a round while Hasted.

Furthermore, if Haste provides an enhancement bonus of 30 feet to a mode of movement, rather than an enhancement bonus of 30 feet to speed, that means that the enhancement bonus to a mode of movement will stack with an enhancement bonus to speed, since they are affecting different things. The Haste increase will stack with a monk's speed bonus, or a Longstrider spell, or an Expeditious Retreat spell.

Given those results, I don't feel that 2 can be stated to be "reasonably" argued.

-Hyp.

All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.

Well, now, there are STILL various ways of looking at this, all legitimate.

SHOULD someone run at 240 with haste or 150? Good question.

Your "mode of movement" is "Run(x4)," so an increase techincally should be 30 feet, up to double the "normal speeed for that mode of movement." But wait, what's the "normal speed" for a "Run (x4"). Another good question. It's either 30, the speed upon which the mode of movement is based, or it is 120, the distance a capable of being traveled with that mode of movement.

It all depends upon the answer to this question:

What's my speed when using Run(X4). The answer is either 30 or 120, depeing upon how you use the term, "speed." I submit tha D&D does not use that term entirely consistenly, and we do not know exactly how it was used for "Haste."

It seems to me that the way Haste is written the intended result is a run of 240, but a run of 150 is a legimate reading as well.

By the same token , I am not sure that Crawl was meant to be doubled, but, by the way the movement rules and Haste are written, I think the movement rate of Crawl doubles.

Personally, I'd throw out ALL of the technical arguments and apply common sense as follows:

Haste makes you move twices as fast if you speed is 30 or less. Crawl restricts you to only five feet of movement. Double that it ten. Perfectly reasonable.

It is also a reasonable reading to say the running would be at 150, but I am not sure at all that's what was meant to happen and i, for one, would certainly not rule that way.

 

[IanB]

The more I look at this the more I'm convinced that run, hustle, and crawl being listed as 'modes' is an error. It is inconsistent with the MM entry, and the haste wording becomes much clearer if they're simply actions instead of modes.

 

[Hypersmurf]

For what it's worth:

In the description of haste, it lists examples of modes of movement affected. These modes of movement are types of base movement provided in each race and creature description in all of our source books. Haste only affects the targets base movement speed. So a creature with a movement of Burrow:20ft would have a movement of Burrow:50 feet with haste. so, if you want to run, you will use the new base speed to determine your run speed. This bonus to movement will not stack with any other 'Enhancement' to speed as they would be the same bonus type and would overlap. Crawling is not a 'Mode' of movement and haste will not affect the distance you can crawl.

Zephreum.
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast

Also, note that Haste specifies that the enhancement bonus increase your Jump bonus as normal for an increase in speed. An "increase to a mode of movement" would have no effect on Jump bonus; only an increase to the speed of a mode of movement; more evidence that the enchancement bonus from Haste increases speed, and thus has no effect on Crawl.

-Hyp.