Crawling & Haste

[Artoomis]

In the SRD. Under 'Speed'.

If the creature has other modes of movement, these are given after (or in place of) the land speed.

I presume that's what you mean. Thanks for pointing that out. Has no bearing on this because of the exclusion iof "Hustle" keeps the door open for the inclusion of "Crawl."

So if I have a base land speed of 30, and I'm hasted and take the Run (x4) action, how far can I move?

-Hyp.

What on earth does that have to do with anything we are discussing?? I fail to see the connection.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I presume that's what you mean. Thanks for pointing that out. Has no bearing on this because of the exclusion iof "Hustle" keeps the door open for the inclusion of "Crawl."

Except that Hustle is land movement, and based on your land speed.

What on earth does that have to do with anything we are discussing?? I fail to see the connection.

With the Run (x4) mode of movement, I can move 120 feet as a full round action at a speed of 30, right?

So when the Haste spell increases the Run (x4) mode of movement by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice my normal speed using that form of movement, how far can I travel?

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

Except that Hustle is land movement, and based on your land speed.

So? It still was completely left out of the MM description of modes of travel, but is included elsewhere, meaning we cannot rely on the MM list to be all-encomposing.

With the Run (x4) mode of movement, I can move 120 feet as a full round action at a speed of 30, right?

So when the Haste spell increases the Run (x4) mode of movement by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice my normal speed using that form of movement, how far can I travel?

-Hyp.

Well, duh, 240-feet no matter how you look at it, right? How is this really a relvant question to help settle this matter firmly one way or the other?

Either the 30 is doubled to 60 and then multiplied by four or the 120 is doubled. It makes no difference how you look at it.

You could say that the normal speed for the mode of movement of run(x4) is 120 and that you then double it for Haste. That seems to follow the rules just fine.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, duh, 240-feet no matter how you look at it, right?

Not at all.

Either the 30 is doubled to 60 and then multiplied by four or the 120 is doubled. It makes no difference how you look at it.

If the 30 is doubled to 60, you're interpreting "mode of movement increases" to be "speed of the mode of movement increases". Crawl has no speed of its own; the only relevant speed is your land speed, which means the increased speed doesn't change how far you move while crawling... since doubling your land speed doesn't change the fact that you crawl 5 feet.

If it's the 120 that increases, it increases by 30 feet (not double), to a maximum of twice the normal speed for that mode of movement. The normal speed for the mode of movement, Run, is your land speed - 30. So the 120 increase by 30, to a maximum of 60. Under this reading, the Haste spell makes you run slower. And would make you crawl 35 feet.

You could say that the normal speed for the mode of movement of run(x4) is 120 and that you then double it for Haste. That seems to follow the rules just fine.

If the normal speed for Run (x4) is 120, that means I get a +36 bonus to Jump checks while running...

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

Not at all.



If the 30 is doubled to 60, you're interpreting "mode of movement increases" to be "speed of the mode of movement increases". Crawl has no speed of its own; the only relevant speed is your land speed, which means the increased speed doesn't change how far you move while crawling... since doubling your land speed doesn't change the fact that you crawl 5 feet.

If it's the 120 that increases, it increases by 30 feet (not double), to a maximum of twice the normal speed for that mode of movement. The normal speed for the mode of movement, Run, is your land speed - 30. So the 120 increase by 30, to a maximum of 60. Under this reading, the Haste spell makes you run slower. And would make you crawl 35 feet.



If the normal speed for Run (x4) is 120, that means I get a +36 bonus to Jump checks while running...

-Hyp.

Okay, re-considering.

Hmmm.....

The mode of movement is Run(x4). That's defined in the rules. It's defined as "moving four times speed."

For review Haste states:

"All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement."

What is the normal speed when using Run(x4). I guess it's 30, but, really, you are moving at 120, so isn't that really the speed? That would mean Haste would increase Run(x4) to 150 feet only.

But, if I am moving normally, my speed would increased to 60. I coudl then run, and I shoud move at 60 x 4, right? But that would be increasing my speed for that mode of movement (run) to 240 - clearly faster than allowed.

Hmmm.....

Part of the problem is the lack of clearly defining what "normal speed using that form of movement" really means. Speed, unfortunately, is not a precisely defined game term other than how far you can move using a Move Action. If Run (x4) lets you move at four times your speed, then are you now at a run speed of 120? Perhaps. About the only time it matters is for Haste, I think.

Here's something interesting:

In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square).

But, if your "Speed" is 30, isn't that your speed no matter how much you are hampered? I think the answer to that is a resounding NO. Your speed is merely what you can move with a move action. In which case, isn't your speed "5" when crawling?

Mind you, crawling is still a bit of a special case, but it really looks like it can at least be Hasted to make it faster.

By the way, if your movement is so hampered that you do not even have sufficient speed to move even 5 feet, could you simply crawl around at 5 as a move action - thus moving FASTER while crawling??

By the way you view it, I think the answer is yes. On the other hand, if crawling effectively reduces speed to 5-feet, then no, you can never go FASTER by crawling. Allowing that would truly be a rules abuse.

The more I look at this the more I think that it is better to think of crawling as having a speed of 5.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What is the normal speed when using Run(x4). I guess it's 30, but, really, you are moving at 120, so isn't that really the speed?

It's 30, and no

If Run (x4) lets you move at four times your speed, then are you now at a run speed of 120? Perhaps. About the only time it matters is for Haste, I think.

Not for the Jump skill?

But, if your "Speed" is 30, isn't that your speed no matter how much you are hampered?

Yes. Let's say I am a halfling in heavy armor (speed of 15). I have saved successfully against a tanglefoot bag (causing me to move at half speed - per the glossary, this means each square counts as two squares), and I am in difficult terrain (causing each square to count as two squares). My speed is still 15 (three squares), but each square I wish to move counts as four squares. My speed of 15 is insufficient to travel even one square; however, I can take a full round action to move five feet.

In which case, isn't your speed "5" when crawling?

No; my speed is 30. I can move 5 feet while crawling.

By the way, if your movement is so hampered that you do not even have sufficient speed to move even 5 feet, could you simply crawl around at 5 as a move action - thus moving FASTER while crawling??

If your movement is so hampered, it is probably because each square counts as more than 5 feet, so crawling would be impossible; you would need a full round action to move five feet.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

Hyp:

I think you are overly caught up in the lack of the term "speed" in the description of Crawl. Speed is a rather poorly defined and/or misused term in D&D. It seems to mean how far you can travel in one move action with one particular mode of movement. Unfortunatley, again stressing the lack of precision in the rules, even "mode of movement" is used in more than one way in the rules.

Like many things in D&D, the precision that you would like to find simply does not exist.

Once again I stress that there are two equally valid ways of viewing this due to the imprecise nature of the rules we are using. I truly wonder why this concept is so hard to accept?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Speed is a rather poorly defined and/or misused term in D&D.

I don't agree.

-Hyp.

 

[IanB]

I think the biggest misinterpretation going on here is that run, hustle, etc., are modes of movement.

Modes of movement that we know for sure are game-defined as such are things like flight, swim, climb, and walking (land speed.)

Flying creatures can run. Which 'mode of movement' are they using?

To put it another way, run, hustle, crawl, and move are actions, not modes. Your 'mode of movement', which is defined by the different speeds in your monster entry or on your character sheet, simply determines what happens when you take those actions, unless the action is more specific - like crawl.

 

[Kieperr]

Under Move Actions there is a section titled Move. In this section it describes moves that are taken as move actions. Added to this, each creature has a listed speed, a term that is clearly defined within the rulebooks, if not within the SRD. The move move actions are as follows:

As a move action you move your speed.

As a move action you move 1/4 your speed when climbing.

As a move action you move 1/4 your speed when swimming.

As a move action you move 5 feet when crawling.

Each is a seperate move. Each is a seperate move action. The first three are based on the creature's speed and anything that affects that speed affects them as well.

The last, crawling, is not based on speed and there is nothing in the rules that even suggests or implies this. You crawl 5 feet as a move action. It cannot be stated any more clearly.