Crawling & Haste

[Kieperr]

Unfortunately I cannot find my MM (I dont; use it much). In any case, does it state that he ONLY "modes of movement" that exist are the same as those listed in Haste? I doubt that very much, as "modes of movement" is not even a game-defined term.

Actually, yes, they are the very same ones listed in Haste.
"Movement Modes: Creatures may have modes of movement other than walking and running. These are natural, not magical, unless specifically noted in a monster description."

It then defines Burrow, Climb, Fly, and Swim, with the walking/running mentioned in the quote above being the land movement in Haste. So walking and running are "modes of movement", crawling is not.

 

[Artoomis]

..Incorrect. See MM pg 311, Movement Modes. WotC has left some doors open, not this one...

I have already explained how the rest of your argumnents are no more valid than the opposing view.

This one, however, is interesting and deserves a better look.

Creatures may have modes of movement other than walking and running. These are natural, not magical, unless specifically noted in a monster description.

This section then goes on to identify some modes of movement - but not necessarily all of them. Nothing says there cannot be others - or, more specifically, that Crawl cannot be a "mode of movement," albeit a special one that provokes an AoO and is limited to only five feet.

Again, I only point out that there are two legitimate ways to view this and both are easily justified using the rules as written. I do not pretend that one argument is better than the other, I only put forth that both are good arguments.

Ultimately, it's up to the DM as the guidance is less than clear. Either the DM is generous and allows ten-foot crawling when Hasted or is less generous and does not.

The world will not end, nor will the game break either way.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This section then goes on to identify some modes of movement - but not necessarily all of them. Nothing says there cannot be others - or, more specifically, that Crawl cannot be a "mode of movement," albeit a special one that provokes an AoO and is limited to only five feet.

However:

Speed
This line gives the creature’s tactical speed on land (the amount of distance it can cover in one move action). If the creature wears armor that reduces its speed, the creature’s base land speed follows.

If the creature has other modes of movement, these are given after (or in place of) the land speed. Unless noted otherwise, modes of movement are natural (not magical).

So, we can state with certainty that elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes do not treat crawling as a 'mode of movement', because if they had a mode of movement other than land speed, it would be given after the land speed in the "Speed" entry of their stat block in the Monster Manual.

-Hyp.

 

[Kieperr]

This section then goes on to identify some modes of movement - but not necessarily all of them.

Actually, within the game, these are all of the modes of movement. They cover movement along horizontal surfaces (land speed), vertical surfaces (climb), through solids (burrow), through gases (fly), and through liquids (swim). Different creatures may have different forms of movement, but all listed speeds fall into one of these 5 modes. For example, Dragons, Beholders, and Ogre Magi all have Fly speeds. Dragons fly because they have wings. Beholders fly because they are naturally boyant so they have Flight (Ex). Ogre Mages fly because they have Flight (Su). There are many ways to move yourself through the air and no matter what form it takes is still flying.

Nothing says there cannot be others - or, more specifically, that Crawl cannot be a "mode of movement," albeit a special one that provokes an AoO and is limited to only five feet.

Nothing says that Crawl cannot be a "mode of movement", except for Crawl itself. Crawling 5 feet is a move action, not a mode of movement.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The world will not end, nor will the game break either way.

Actually, the world will end if you allow a 10ft-hasted crawl. The world will explode in a strange paradox as all the monks and possibly even barbarians revolt.

 

[Artoomis]

Nothing says that Crawl cannot be a "mode of movement", except for Crawl itself. Crawling 5 feet is a move action, not a mode of movement.

ROFL. "Move" itself is a Move Action. Saying Crawl is a Move Action says nothing. Saying Crawl is a Move Action OTHER than a Move would be saying something, but, it is not - it is indeed a Move, as it is defined as one.

I'll prove it:

Here's the section layout in the SRD. Note that "Move" is merely one of the kinds of Move Actions and that Crawl is listed under "Move:"

Actions In Combat...

Action Types...

There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, free actions, swift actions, and immediate actions.

Move Action
A move action allows you to move your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Move Actions.

.
.
.

Move Actions...

Move

The simplest move action is moving your speed...
Accelerated Climbing You can climb one-half ...
Crawling You can crawl 5 feet as a move action...

Draw or Sheathe a Weapon

Ready or Loose a Shield

Manipulate an Item

Direct or Redirect a Spell

Stand Up

Mount/Dismount a Steed

End SRD Info

Note that a Move is a type of move Action. Crawl is listed under the Move section of Move Actions. Crawl is, therefore, a Move, which is, in turn, a "Move Action."

Further, (here's a new twist), "A move action allows you to move your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time." Since crawling is a "move" (by placement under the "Move" move action) and since you either "move your speed" or "perform an action that takes...," the 5 feet you move MUST be your speed by the way this all ties together.

All right, that may be a bit of a stretch for some of you, but it does all tie together logically in a nice tight little package.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Further, (here's a new twist), "A move action allows you to move your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time." Since crawling is a "move" (by placement under the "Move" move action) and since you either "move your speed" or "perform an action that takes...," the 5 feet you move MUST be your speed by the way this all ties together.

No, your speed does not change based on how far you move. If you crawl 5ft, your speed is still your speed. It has not changed, be it 20ft or 50ft. As a related example to show why you're wrong on this point, consider if you have a speed of 40ft. You move 20ft and jump over a chasm that is 10ft wide. Your total movement planned is only 30ft, so is your speed 30 (no bonus on the jump check) or 40 (for a bonus on the jump check)?

 

[Artoomis]

No, your speed does not change based on how far you move. If you crawl 5ft, your speed is still your speed. It has not changed, be it 20ft or 50ft. As a related example to show why you're wrong on this point, consider if you have a speed of 40ft. You move 20ft and jump over a chasm that is 10ft wide. Your total movement planned is only 30ft, so is your speed 30 (no bonus on the jump check) or 40 (for a bonus on the jump check)?

I do agree that the normal speed does NOT change here, but...

What they've done here is back-door in a crawl speed as if it was seperate from any other speed. By defining crawl as they did, they effectively (and, I am certain, accidently) created a new "mode of movement," "crawl," for which the speed is always 5-feet.

To avoid doing that, "Crawl" needed to be listed as it's own Move Action, not listed under "Move."

Now I am the FIRST to agree that this is not the only way to look at it and that list is ALSO legitimate to view "Crawl" as being a "Move Action" OTHER than a Move, and that the PHB and SRD simply did not do a good enough job in stating that fact.

 

[Artoomis]

Actually, within the game, these are all of the modes of movement. ...

What it says is "Creatures may have modes of movement other than walking and running." It does not state that they are all covered in this section. It does imply that all the modes of movement that are listed in a monster description are covered in that section.

Further, it implies that walking and running are different "modes of movment."

This still leaves open the door that "Crawl" is a mode of movement.

 

[cmanos]

now if you had KNEEPADS OF HASTE, it would be a different story.....