Crawling & Haste

[ceratitis]

oh i agree with you artoomis i was just pointing out why i felt the rules as written (which support the above quote as well as tripping a carrion crawler) were wrong. if you scroll back to the first reply to the OP you'll see my point of view
Z

 

[Hypersmurf]

1. "All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet..."

Okay, Crawl is definately a "mode of movement" because it is listed under "Move."

It's not land movement, burrow, climb, fly, or swim.

-Hyp.

 

[Vrecknidj]

My questions are, 1) what does it do to the game to let him crawl 10 feet per round instead of 5, and 2) can you crawl 10 feet in 6 seconds (and have time to "take another action")?

If nothing significant changes in the game by letting the magic affect his "crawling speed," then let it happen. If it's game-changing, then let it happen if it's more fun than not letting it happen.

Dave

 

[Artoomis]

It's not land movement, burrow, climb, fly, or swim.

-Hyp.

True, but that list is not an exclusive listing. "Including..." leaves the door wide open for other modes of movement.

Next argument?

Frankly, I do not see any argument that will close the door to legitimately looking at this either way and being correct per RAW. Perhaps you will yet surprise me with one I had not yet considered.

 

[Artoomis]

My questions are, 1) what does it do to the game to let him crawl 10 feet per round instead of 5, and 2) can you crawl 10 feet in 6 seconds (and have time to "take another action")?

If nothing significant changes in the game by letting the magic affect his "crawling speed," then let it happen. If it's game-changing, then let it happen if it's more fun than not letting it happen.

Dave

I tend to agree - I see this as no big deal, and it STILL draws an AoO anyway.

 

[Kieperr]

Okay, let's look very closely, step by step, at the language in Haste to see what happens if we closely follow the language assuming Crawl is limited to 5-feet but we don't call that a "speed" of 5-feet:

Actually, the language in haste has nothing to do with this. It is the language under Move in the Move Actions section, PHB pg 142, that defines this. Haste does not change the definition.

Under Move it states:
"The simplest move action is moving your speed."
and
"Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action."

So moving your speed is a move action and crawling is a move action. The first of these move actions allows the creature to move up to its speed in whatever form that speed takes. The second of these move actions allows the creature to move up to 5 feet while crawling.

Haste does not affect move actions, it affects a creature's modes of movement and does this by increasing the creature's speed by up to 30 feet. The listed modes of movement (MM pg 311) are, in addition to walking (i.e. land speed), Burrow, Climb, Fly, and Swim. Modes of movement are defined within the rules and Crawl is not one of them and so is not affected by spells that affect modes of movement.

Crawling is defined as a move action that allows you to move a distance of 5 feet, nothing more.

 

[Kieperr]

True, but that list is not an exclusive listing. "Including..." leaves the door wide open for other modes of movement.

Actually, it is. MM pg 311.

 

[Artoomis]

Actually, the language in haste has nothing to do with this. It is the language under Move in the Move Actions section, PHB pg 142, that defines this. Haste does not change the definition.

Under Move it states:
"The simplest move action is moving your speed."
and
"Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action."

So moving your speed is a move action and crawling is a move action. The first of these move actions allows the creature to move up to its speed in whatever form that speed takes. The second of these move actions allows the creature to move up to 5 feet while crawling.

Haste does not affect move actions, it affects a creature's modes of movement and does this by increasing the creature's speed by up to 30 feet. The listed modes of movement (MM pg 311) are, in addition to walking (i.e. land speed), Burrow, Climb, Fly, and Swim. Modes of movement are defined within the rules and Crawl is not one of them and so is not affected by spells that affect modes of movement.

Crawling is defined as a move action that allows you to move a distance of 5 feet, nothing more.

Actually Crawl is defined aqs a Move Action only in the same way that other movement is.

The way the Move Action section is set up there are two basic types: Moves, and other Move Actions. Crawl is a Move.

Sorry, but had Crawl been actually defined as some other kind of Move Action other than Move you would have been correct. WotC left the door open for Hasted Crawls by defining it under "Move" and then saying Haste affected "modes of movement," an undefined game term.

If you want to argue intent, fine, I might even concede the point. If you want to argue based on the language in the rules, no way. The language simply leaves the door open to view this either way. It's a DM decision - that's why DM's make the bing money.

 

[Artoomis]

Actually, it is. MM pg 311.

Unfortunately I cannot find my MM (I dont; use it much). In any case, does it state that he ONLY "modes of movement" that exist are the same as those listed in Haste? I doubt that very much, as "modes of movement" is not even a game-defined term.

 

[Kieperr]

Actually Crawl is defined aqs a Move Action only in the same way that other movement is.

Correct. Moving your speed AND crawling 5 feet are each defined as a seperate move action.

The way the Move Actoin section is set up there are two basic types: Moves, and other Move Actions. Crawl is a Move.

Move is a type of move action. Crawling 5 feet is a move action listed under Move. Moving up to your speed is a move action listed under Move. Each one is a seperate move action defined under Move in the Move Actions section and has no connection to the other. If they were connected then crawling would be listed as a Movement Mode and based on a creature's speed, as Climb and Swim are, and not limited to 5 feet.

Sorry, but had Crawl been actually defined as some other kind of Move Action other than Move you would have been correct.

Just because it is listed under Move does not mean it is based on a creature's speed or that it is a Mode of Movement. In fact, the rules state otherwise.

WotC left the door open for Hasted Crawls by defining it under "Move" and then saying Haste affected "modes of movement," an undefined game term, actually.

Incorrect. See MM pg 311, Movement Modes. WotC has left some doors open, not this one.

If you want to argue intent, fine, I might even concede the point. If you want to argue based on the language in the rules, no way. The language simply leaves the door open to view this either way.

"Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action."
This is the language in the rules. What part of "crawl 5 feet as a move action" leaves the door open? It does not mention speed. It does not mention modes of movement. It does not mention differing distances based on speed or anything else. It is simple and direct.

It is a move action to crawl. When you crawl you move 5 feet.