Crawling & Haste

[Artoomis]

And that's the key point.

If Crawling said "You can crawl with a speed of 5 feet", there might be room for stacking speed bonuses on it. But it doesn't; it says "You can crawl 5 feet". You don't have a crawl speed; you crawl 5 feet.

In just the same way that people don't have a 5' step speed of 5 feet; they simply move 5 feet with a 5' step.

-Hyp.

Well, there is room for interpretation because Crawl is defined under "Move Action - Move." Had it been defined under "Move Actions" more generally the door would have been closed to Haste.

This is, I admit, hardly a totally convincing argument - it just leaves the door open.

So let me ask you a question:

Is crawl a "mode of movement" and/or a "form of movement?"

It's hard to argue that it is not as it is even listed as a "Move" NOT some other form of "Move Action" like "Stand Up" , or Manipulate an Item" or any of the "Move Actions" other than "Move."

If so, Haste doubles the normal speed you have when using that form of movement - in this case, 5 feet.

Note that a 5-foot step is clearly defined as other than a normal "Move" and not subject to Haste effects. It's not in the same category as "Crawl."

Again, I do not propse this as a particularly convincing argument, just as the lack of the term "speed" in describing Crawl is hardly a convincing argument that when one crawls it is not at a speed of five feet.

I think the door was left wide open to view this either way and be correct.

Edit: I think the intent was that Haste would not apply, but I cannot be absolutely certain of even that the way it is written. In any case, it certainly would be generous to allow it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If so, Haste doubles the normal speed you have when using that form of movement - in this case, 5 feet.

You don't have a speed of 5 feet when crawling. The distance you crawl is unrelated to speed. Just like a 5' step, you move 5 feet.

Would you argue that Haste doubles the 'speed' of your five foot step?

-Hyp.

 

[Rystil Arden]

You don't have a speed of 5 feet when crawling. The distance you crawl is unrelated to speed. Just like a 5' step, you move 5 feet.

Would you argue that Haste doubles the 'speed' of your five foot step?

-Hyp.

Indeed. This is why a high-level Monk with feats and other abilities to put him up to 100 base land speed still crawls 5 feet, just like a halfling in full plate with base land speed of 15 feet.

 

[Artoomis]

You don't have a speed of 5 feet when crawling. The distance you crawl is unrelated to speed. Just like a 5' step, you move 5 feet.

Would you argue that Haste doubles the 'speed' of your five foot step?

-Hyp.

Nope, because, as I earlier stated, a 5-foot step is NOT defined as a "Move."


A 5-foot step is not a "mode of movement" and/or a "form of movement" because it is specifically defined as an exception to "Move."

Crawl, on the other hand, is defined as a type of "Move." That's a world of difference.

Would you argue that Crawl is not a "mode of movement" and/or a "form of movement"?

 

[tomBitonti]

Picturing crawl

Say, does anyone think that the 5' of travel that a crawl grants is perhaps a bit generous,
and set at 5' because smaller increments don't exist on the gridded game map? Slower
folks geat break, but only becase the rules are rounding up to 5'.

Picture that your legs are numb and you are pulling yourself along a rope on the ground.
How fast would that be? For many folks, pretty slow.

The other image is of a soldier crawling under barbed wire ... very much as is shown
in many movies. I have to imagine that this is a real life training exercise, I've seen it
on enough movies. How fast is that? (Not a rhetorical question: There has got to be
someone online who has done this exercise, and who can say.)

The trouble is when 'crawling' turns into 'crabbing', where you are at least up on your
limbs, although still very low to the ground. Crabbing seems to me to be faster than 10'
per 6 seconds.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Would you argue that Crawl is not a "mode of movement" and/or a "form of movement"?

It's not one that's based on a speed.

If there's a speed that's relevant, its your land speed... the same speed that's used for determining how fast you climb if you don't have a Climb speed, and how fast you swim if you don't have a Swim speed.

When you climb (without a Climb speed), you move at a quarter your land speed as a move action... so 5 feet with a speed of 20, and 10 feet with a speed of 40.

When you swim (without a Climb speed), you move at a quarter your land speed as a move action... so 5 feet with a speed of 20, and 10 feet with a speed of 40.

When you crawl, you move 5 feet as a move action... so 5 feet with a speed of 20, and 5 feet with a speed of 40.

Under Haste, your speed doubles. So our character with a speed of 20, when Hasted, can climb 10 feet, swim 10 feet, or crawl 5 feet as a move action.

-Hyp.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

I think I'd house rule something like this.

You can crawl at 1/4 your speed. Just like climbing. Actually its harder to crawl than it is to climb which doesn't make any sense. Sure you get at AoO on you if you climb without a climb speed but so does crawling. So if you happen to be prone next to a wall you could climb the wall faster than crawling away.

Or... Full defense, Stand and 5' away

Actually, it is much easier to crawl than it is to climb. I can easily crawl at half my normal walk speed, but climbing at 1/4 of my walk speed is difficult unless I'm on a ladder or something similar.

All of the rules are based on Medium creatures with 30ft movement, and are modified from there. Hasted and crawling prone has never come up in our games, but my vote goes to hasted = 10ft crawl.

 

[Artoomis]

It's not one that's based on a speed.

If there's a speed that's relevant, its your land speed... the same speed that's used for determining how fast you climb if you don't have a Climb speed, and how fast you swim if you don't have a Swim speed.

When you climb (without a Climb speed), you move at a quarter your land speed as a move action... so 5 feet with a speed of 20, and 10 feet with a speed of 40.

When you swim (without a Climb speed), you move at a quarter your land speed as a move action... so 5 feet with a speed of 20, and 10 feet with a speed of 40.

When you crawl, you move 5 feet as a move action... so 5 feet with a speed of 20, and 5 feet with a speed of 40.

Under Haste, your speed doubles. So our character with a speed of 20, when Hasted, can climb 10 feet, swim 10 feet, or crawl 5 feet as a move action.

-Hyp.

Okay, let's look very closely, step by step, at the language in Haste to see what happens if we closely follow the language assuming Crawl is limited to 5-feet but we don't call that a "speed" of 5-feet:

1. "All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet..."

Okay, Crawl is definately a "mode of movement" because it is listed under "Move." Therefore, so far, "Crawl " would increase to 35 feet of movement.

However, this is limited bv:

2. ... to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement.

So now one has to figure out what the normal speed is for Crawl. Here one can take any of at least three approaches:

1. Crawl has no offically listed "speed," therefore the movement rate uder Haste is, technically, 35 feet because it has no limitation. Silly, of course, but one way to look at it. This feels technically correct but clearly abusive of intent.

2. Crawl has no listed "speed," therfore the limiting clause cannot apply and, by extension, the thing that it is limiting (increase of speed by 30-feet) cannot apply either. This is bad logic, as the mere fact that a limitation does not apply does not automatically mean that the thing it is limiting does not apply.

3. Crawl has, effectively, a speed of "5" for all creatures, thus the limitation applies and one crawls at 10-feet if hasted. This works, but requires treating "Crawl" as having a speed of "5," which, while true from a practical sense, is not listed that way in its description.

So we have:

1. Technically most correct with the rules as written, but a really obviously wrong way to apply the rules.

2. Technically bad logic, but feels right to many people and is likely the way this was intended to work.

3. Also not entirely satisfactory because "Crawl" does not have a "speed," technically.

We are thus left with no entirely satisfactory answer. The two best answers are, in no particular order:

A. "Crawl" cannot be affected by Hasted because it is not really the same type of movement meant to be affected by Haste as evidenced by the lack of the term "speed" in describing "Crawl."

B. "Crawl" can be Hasted to 10-feet of movement because it is a "mode of movement" and can therefore be Hasted. To prevent ridiculous abuse (crawling at 35-feet), one must treat it as having a speed of "5" for this purpose, despite the technical absence of the term "speed" in teh desciption of crawling.

 

[ceratitis]

Indeed. This is why a high-level Monk with feats and other abilities to put him up to 100 base land speed still crawls 5 feet, just like a halfling in full plate with base land speed of 15 feet.

and this makes sense to you? to me this sounds about as reasonable as tripping a shark
(or if you insist on following the rules, trip a carrion crawler)
Z

 

[Artoomis]

and this makes sense to you? to me this sounds about as reasonable as tripping a shark
(or if you insist on following the rules, trip a carrion crawler)
Z

We are mixing up two things here:

Rules as Written and
Rules as They Should Be.

As written, everone crawls at 5-feet, pehaps doubled with haste, perhaps not, depending upon how you read it.

As it should be is one of two things, I think:

1. Crawl should have speed, perhaps based upon the characater's normal land speed. Perhaps 5-feet for each 30 feet of movement rate with minimum of 5-feet.

or

2. Crawl should NOT be listed as a Move, but as of of the other misc Move Actions.