Crawling & Haste

[Caliban]

I agree with Artoomis.

 

[werk]

I think it is also perfectly legitimate to call it a form of movement that happens to be 5-feet for everyone and is unrelated to any other movement speed a character might have.

I think that is unsubstantiated...and generous.

 

[Space Coyote]

sorry if this came out a little harsh but honestly tripping a shark?!!!
Z

Hehe, thats funny. I'm going to add that to my signature.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'd say that allowing 10-foot crawls with Haste is the looser (more PC-friendly) interpretation.

PC or NPC friendly. But, if you allow the crawl speed to increase, then you can take a 5ft-crawl, right? If it's normal movement, then you can do anything you can do normally. You could crawl and draw a weapon as a free action, you can tumble, etc.

I don't like that interpretation, though I agree it doesn't explicitly call crawling non-normal movement. The fact that crawling is identified separately as it's own move action, however, very strongly implies that it's not normal movement. This is further reinforced by the additional rules on the 'movement'.

 

[ceratitis]

Hehe, thats funny. I'm going to add that to my signature.

glad to see you use it
remember to smile when you read it
Z

 

[Artoomis]

PC or NPC friendly. But, if you allow the crawl speed to increase, then you can take a 5ft-crawl, right? If it's normal movement, then you can do anything you can do normally. You could crawl and draw a weapon as a free action, you can tumble, etc.

I don't like that interpretation, though I agree it doesn't explicitly call crawling non-normal movement. The fact that crawling is identified separately as it's own move action, however, very strongly implies that it's not normal movement. This is further reinforced by the additional rules on the 'movement'.

Well, what about:

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

Even if you consider crawl a form of "regular" movement, it's NOT a listed speed an therefore no 5-foot step, even when hasted.

Otherwise, crawling is indeed listed under "Move Action - Move" and so it is, perhaps, just fine to draw a weapon when crawling (assuming a +1 BAB).

It's my recommendation to be generous here as it won't break the game in any way and will simplify things a bit and avoid any questions about whether this is "movement" or not whenever that is important, instead of having to decide that for each case seperately.

 

[Infiniti2000]

"Well, what about..."

You're arguing in my favor. You quoted rules that support my statement and my viewpoint.

"Even if you consider crawl a form of "regular" movement, it's NOT a listed speed ..."

This is (at least one reason) why it's not regular movement.

"It's my recommendation to be generous here as it won't break the game in any way and will simplify things a bit adn avoid any questions about whether this is "movement" or not whenever that is important, onsterad of having to decide that for each case seperately."

While it may not break anything, it certainly doesn't make the monk feel any better. For example, a 6th-level unarmored monk gets a +20 enhancement bonus to speed and can only crawl 5ft. A dwarf fighter with full plate gets a +20 enhancement bonus to speed and can crawl 10ft. Give the monk a different enhancement bonus and suddenly he can crawl 10ft. How (a) is that fair, (b) does that make sense?

 

[Artoomis]

...While it may not break anything, it certainly doesn't make the monk feel any better. For example, a 6th-level unarmored monk gets a +20 enhancement bonus to speed and can only crawl 5ft. A dwarf fighter with full plate gets a +20 enhancement bonus to speed and can crawl 10ft. Give the monk a different enhancement bonus and suddenly he can crawl 10ft. How (a) is that fair, (b) does that make sense?

I did not even come close to understanding that. How does the dwarf get to move 10 feet and the monk 5 feet? Unless, of course, the dwarf has armor granting a Haste effect that doubles his speed.

If so, then, if you follow my recommendation, tell the monk to suck it up and buy boots of speed if he wants a 10-foot crawl speed.

Like I stated earlier, either way works and is following the rules as written since they leave enough wiggle room to interpret them either way just fine.

 

[Artoomis]

...This is (at least one reason) why it's not regular movement...

Interestingly enough, "regular movement" is not a defined term, nor is that term or concept used in Haste:

All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement.

Is crawl a "mode of movement" and/or a "form of movement?" Well, arguably yes, because it is listed under "Move" in "Move Actions." Further, the phrase "including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim" is not put forth as an exclusive list, leaving open the possibility of other forms of movement not listed.

Bottom line, either way works, like I said, though I am beginning to think that the stricter (closer to "rules as written)" interpretation is that Haste does indeed double the speed when crawling.

In any case, it simply comes down to whether you wish to be more generous to characters or less so.

 

[green slime]

so whats your point? imho any dm who allows someone to trip a shark underwater should simply resign, that is way too much silliness in the game. btw- do you know that sharks have to move all the time in order to breath? so beyond the silliness of tripping one its also an instant kill. and a shark out of the water doesnt crawl, it flops.
i dont think hourses know how to crawl. we werent talking about bezar animals being triped this was about humans who can walk/run/ get triped and crawl.
sorry if this came out a little harsh but honestly tripping a shark?!!!
Z

Hardly instant kill. Sharks, like other creatures don't instantly die as soon as they have difficulty breathing. Otherwise, the shark would hardly be flopping when out of the water now then, would it? It would die instantly.

Apart from the silliness of tripping sharks, not all sharks are required to move in order to breathe. Wobbegongs of Australia lurk on the bottom of the ocean floor, -breathing-. I'm sure there are other varieties of shark that do the same trick, I just can't think of their names at the moment.