Crazy Idea...max HP of 20th level?

[pming]

Hiya!

Crazy idea I've been having of late that keeps popping back up. But first I need to set the 'limits' (things we don't use) of this experiment I'm going to try...

LIMITS

• Feats
• Multiclassing
• Any book other than PHB, DMG, MM (just core, baby!)

Ok, with that out of the way...

The idea is to let a 1st level PC roll his HP's for ALL 20 LEVELS of his class. So a 1st level Fighter would have 20d10 hp's (plus/minus CON adjustment per, obviously).

Crazy? Yeah, maybe. But hear me out on my wanting to try this.

What I'm envisioning for this new campaign world (I would create a new world for this...so it all makes 'sense' in some meta-game manner), is that PC's are "obviously" destined for greater things. One of the biggest hurdles for the whole "PC's as Heroes" mindset that so many seem to cling to in 5e is the whole "I'm a Hero! Or I was, until that warhorse bucked me off and I died". A low level PC has scan't HP's when compared to what is "expected" for the big-ass heroes to handle...spears through the gut, undead bears chewing on their midsection, half a dozen arrows piercing their skin, falling off a 90' tower into a raging sea 150' below that, etc. A 1st (or 2nd, 3rd, or even higher) character is just NOT likely to make it. They just die.

Normally this is fine from my perspective. Then again, in my campaign the PC's are NOT special. At least not in the sense of "I'm a hero destined for greatness!". They are special in that they have the potential to reach greatness. They are also special in that they can actually gain levels and even have a class (most of the world at large are just 0-level commoners with between 1 and 5 hp's and do NOT have the capability to gain experience points or learn a class). But beyond that they are just "folks that stand out".

By giving full-on 20 levels worth of HP's I foresee the adventures and story being able to advance a lot more organically. The PC's, at level 1, WILL be able to, theoretically, "hold the gates for 10 rounds until the town guards can get there"...fighting of wave after wave of goblins, taking arrows in the shoulder and bites from the wolves. Will they be able to lay waste to the goblin army? Nope. Not likely at all. They are only 1st level, after all, with limited capability to bring such power to bare. But they can hold the line...and make a name for themselves. They will then be sought after by higher level patrons to be used as pawns...I mean "allies"...in the fight against the coming war.

I also see the potential for more "epic" (in the more modern parlance) adventures. Low level PC's take on some goblins...only to discover that they are just the recon for the giants...who are being used by the drow...who are being manipulated by demons...which are under the control of a demi-god. And this can all start from day one of the PC's adventuring careers. The "level" of the PC would become a LOT less important, overall, in what they take on. It would also put more powerful and terrifying monsters...from the "common mans point of view" in their rightful place in the tiers of "We can't fight XYZ! It impossible to pierce their skin and they breath fire hotter than that of any forge!". The PC's could actually survive an encounter, and run away, and figure out another way to try and overcome XYZ. And this can be done without the DM "fudging" dice rolls or having very convenient clerics or magical potions that would be otherwise needed to keep the PC's from a TPK in two rounds flat.

One thing I WOULD use is the Massive Damage rules. I think this would be one of those "you're not immune to death from single hit/fall/spell" balancing factors. Yeah, you may have 200hp, but taking 50hp from a massive spell can still spell your low-level characters death as your saves/stats will still be "low level".

Anyway, I'm going to get to work creating a world now. But I still want to hear if anyone has done this before, or if anyone sees any glaring problems I'm just blind too.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

Why not just allow the players to create a (e.g.) level 7 character? That would be a much easier way to get past the squishy levels, and then you do not have any balancing issues.

Giving the players this many HP, all low-level healing spells become rather meaningless and spells like Aid become pointless. How many hit-dice do players get at level 1? One or twenty? Also, how does the Tough feat work now? You instantly get 40 HP extra (2x 20 HP?).
Bottom line: A long rest becomes the only way to restore the health of the party, and as such the entire campaign will revolve around getting long rests. Other forms of healing are inferior or even pointless.

 

[AkaKageWarrior]

With the low damage output from monsters of medium to high challenge rating in 5e, I do not think that makes sense.
I like the thrill of low level play, okay, not really in level 1, when falling off a horse can kill the wizard...

That was the only good thing about 4e, the starting hitpoints.

So maybe try something else, so that low level game play is still challenging:
- starting hp = constitution score + class hp max
- give out more inspiration than usual
- as mentioned above, let them start at higher level
- just don't see them as heros in the first few levels - it's not their destiny, it's their deeds that make them heros. (wow, I like that )

 

[TwoSix]

Hmm. I'd probably do the following.

1) Change a long rest to give back the amount of hit points they would normally have at X level, rather than their full hit points. That way the extra hit points act more like a heroic reserve; they can push them into extreme situations every once in a while, but they're going to be laid up for a few days to recover from it. Fits the classic heroic narrative better that way, I think.

2) I'd say the real issue is a question of pacing. Casters are going to feel hindered in this kind of situation, unless the encounters tend to be with high damage, low endurance monsters. A party with limited offense but between 100-150 HP is going to be able to push themselves for a long time, well beyond the standard 6-8 encounter day. Skewing the game away from casters isn't necessarily a bad thing, of course.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Why not just allow the players to create a (e.g.) level 7 character? That would be a much easier way to get past the squishy levels, and then you do not have any balancing issues.

Giving the players this many HP, all low-level healing spells become rather meaningless and spells like Aid become pointless. How many hit-dice do players get at level 1? One or twenty? Also, how does the Tough feat work now? You instantly get 40 HP extra (2x 20 HP?).
Bottom line: A long rest becomes the only way to restore the health of the party, and as such the entire campaign will revolve around getting long rests. Other forms of healing are inferior or even pointless.

We like to start at level 1. It's just a thing we have always enjoyed. Starting a PC at higher level feels, to me anyway, like I (or the player) is "taking over someone else's character". We like the squishy levels, actually...which is completely opposite from what this thread/OP is going for (hence the term "crazy" ).

We don't use MC or Feats or other books, so that should remove the majority of HP change/bonus over levels thing.

Resting: My group tends to play from the perspective of the PC's as opposed to that of the Players. What I mean is that if the fighter is down to 4hp and everyone else is doing ok, that Player will tend towards having the fighter keep on going, RP'ing the injury and whatnot but also RP'ing the Fighters "pride" at being tough enough to keep on going...because if the Wizard, with 5hp and AC 12 can keep going, why shouldn't he? Yes, this does lead to some dangerous situations, but if the PC's have only been awake and adventuring for 3 hours they will tend to keep on going...because it's only been 3 hours. If they have all been injured and some of the higher-level spells/abilities were used, so be it. Only when they can't justify "We can do it...we just have to be more careful" do they blurt out "Ok, that's it. If we keep going we're going to die. It sucks it's only been 4 hours, but man o' man have we been in some battles this morning!".

Point is...not healing full HP is a common thing in our group's play style. "Close enough" is always "good enough". And when you have 160hp total and "only" have 120 left...well, you're pretty much always going to be "good enough". I also have a different healing method than the core book (no more "POOF! You're healed 100%"; it's based on half-max HD per safe, full 8-hour rest...so each morning the PC would heal, with this max-hd idea, 10HD).

With the low damage output from monsters of medium to high challenge rating in 5e, I do not think that makes sense.
I like the thrill of low level play, okay, not really in level 1, when falling off a horse can kill the wizard...

That was the only good thing about 4e, the starting hitpoints.

So maybe try something else, so that low level game play is still challenging:
- starting hp = constitution score + class hp max
- give out more inspiration than usual
- as mentioned above, let them start at higher level
- just don't see them as heros in the first few levels - it's not their destiny, it's their deeds that make them heros. (wow, I like that )

We like low level play as well. In my games PC's are "folks with a special spark", but not "heroes destined for greatness". Adventurers are generally seen as crazy, stupid, untrustworthy, and dangerous to even be around. A Farmer can go years walking the 5 miles of dirt road from his farm to the city without so much as a whiff of serious danger. If that Farmer is suddenly met by a quintet of "adventurers", his chance of encountering some horrible creature or hoard of undead rises significantly. It's one of those "fantasy RPG 'isms". Because of this 'ism, I have, over the decades, taken to adjusting my campaigns towards a more "boring and mundane" style of backdrop. In other words...I don't tailor the adventure/area to the PC's. This takes the whole "heroes at level 1" thing down quite a bit, making them feel more like 'unusual people with unusual skills'.

I think I get what you're getting at; you see the 20-HD idea as primarily a means of keeping the PC's alive at lower/mid levels. I'm not doing this because of that. I am more interested in the effect that having such a huge amount of HP's from the get-go suddenly opens up a HUGE range of monsters I can use at virtually any time in the PC's endevours. They could be fighting a dungeon full of kobolds, and then find out the kobolds are worshiping a full-on dragon....and I can have that dragon actually make an appearance without TPK'ing the whole group in one round. I could have the group pushing back the tide of giants, and then have an army of orcs arrive...and have the group not get TPK'ed in two rounds. Basically, with a huge amount of HP's, an unfortunate random encounter might not be a death sentence.

Hmm. I'd probably do the following.

1) Change a long rest to give back the amount of hit points they would normally have at X level, rather than their full hit points. That way the extra hit points act more like a heroic reserve; they can push them into extreme situations every once in a while, but they're going to be laid up for a few days to recover from it. Fits the classic heroic narrative better that way, I think.

2) I'd say the real issue is a question of pacing. Casters are going to feel hindered in this kind of situation, unless the encounters tend to be with high damage, low endurance monsters. A party with limited offense but between 100-150 HP is going to be able to push themselves for a long time, well beyond the standard 6-8 encounter day. Skewing the game away from casters isn't necessarily a bad thing, of course.

As I said above, we do healing different. It's also not about "healing more" or anything like that...it's about being able to take a hit from something that does 4d10+5 at 2nd level. It's a means of sort of "opening up" the Players ability to choose to do something that interests them right from the get go. If they want to check out "The Kobold Caves", they can. If they want to see what's in the "Valley of the Dragon", they can. If they feel the need to confront the "Dread Knight of Skulls" and his army of undead, they can. All from virtually any 'level'. As D&D stands, that sort of wide-open adventure hooks just isn't really possible. Everyone knows at low level you fight goblins, mid level you fight orcs and ogres, high level you fight giants, very high level you fight demons, devils and dragons. My thought is that, if everyone has as many HP's as they would at level 20...they can jump straight into taking on the "Demon Dragon of Hellmaw Pass" at level 3. And probably loose. But in this case, "loose" actually means loose...not TPK.

Anyway, thanks everyone! Got me thinking of a couple of different aspects I didn't really consider well enough.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[the Jester]

Honestly, that sounds really boring. Hit point progression is part of what makes the game fun. If low level monsters can't really threaten a pc except in huge waves, well... yeah. That sounds like a different game than I would want to play. Low-level challenges do the damage they do because they challenge low level pcs. You're taking that off the table.

 

[aco175]

You could now just throw the group at giants and dragons since 5e scaling allows for that. Having enough HP allows for the +3 or 4 difference to hit between 1st level and 10th. I agree that the healing would need to change. It would make the pcs feel more epic and can go clean out the orc lair or take on the giant threatening the town and such. Zero to Hero and all that. I don't think my players would go for it though.

 

[Quartz]

Rather than rolling for HP or using average HP, try using Max(HD) - N where N is the variable. I liked to use N = 2 in 3E days.

 

[Satyrn]

It would be an interesting experiment.

 

[Mercurius]

Interesting idea. But why must it be either/or? How about this variant:

Give PCs half their HD in HP to start (so either 60, 80, or 100) plus Con bonus, and then let them gain the remaining HP over 20 levels. Like so:

d6 classes: start wtih 60 (3 x 20) + Con bonus; +20 HP per six levels (6th, 12th, 18th) to fill out HD

d8 classes: start with 80 (4 x 20) + Con bonus: +20 HP per five levels (5th, 10th, 15th, 20th) to fill out HD

d10 classes: start with 100 (5 x 20) + Con bonus: +20 HP per four levels (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th) to fill out HD

So you're still getting some of the effect you want, but also increases over time. You could also do this in different ways (e.g. same starting HP, but roll half HD each level).