Crazy Multiclassing Idea

[the Jester]

Ehhhrm, on reflection, I don't really think I like this. It adds too much accounting, too much complexity to the system.

If the point is to 'fix' multiclassed spellcasters in 3ed, there are more elegant solutions, such as giving each class a 'base spellcasting level' (+1 per level for cleric, druid, wiz or sorc, +2/3 for bard, +1/2 for paladin/ranger, +1/3 for non-casting classes).

If the point is something else, I've missed it.

YMMV, but I think you're adding a lot of extra complexity for gains that can be achieved in other, better ways.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Huh?
I thought that the: Character 2: Sor 14/Ftr 2/Rog 2/Bbn 2/Clr 1/Dru 1/Brd 1/Wiz 1 (104k XP) would get the barbarian HD (but only upped from sorcerer, so assuming maxed would be 24 (12x2) - 8 (4*2), for 16 HP (12 if you count the extra level of sorcerer the single classed would have.

Replacing one die of Sorcerer with a Fighter die raises your HP by 3 (d4 -> d10), assuming average die rolls. Likewise, Barbarian gains 4, Rogue and Bard gain 1, Cleric and Druid gain 2. So, you'd gain (3x2 + 1x2 + 4x2 + 2 + 2 + 1 = 21 HP), regardless of your CON bonus, and only lose (d4 + CON).

The skill points he'll get for all classes (2+8+4+2+4+6+2 = 28+7xint) skill points - I wouldn't give x4 at first level for additional classes in this variant.

You're miscounting, because there were two levels each of Ftr, Rog, and Bbn in the character I listed. So it's (2x2 + 8x2 + 4x2 + 2 + 4 + 6 + 2 = 42 + 10xINT). No x4 included. Since the Sorcerer 14 had (34 + 17xINT) to begin with, you're approximately doubling your skill points, besides having a far larger set of skills to spend on.

Yes he'd get all spells and class abilities, but to be honest, 1st level spells, a combat feat, etc aren't that good by 5th level, The Rage would be good but for a mostly sorcerer character?

1st level spells aren't that good by 5th level, for the most part, but they're not useless. There are plenty of spells that don't depend on caster level (True Strike!) or non-combat ones (Identify). But I wasn't even counting them, really. Oh, and don't ignore the extra cantrip slots.

A Feat is ALWAYS useful, even if it's a Fighter feat. For a caster, take Improved Initiative, Dodge/Mobility, or even Blind Fight. The free Scribe Scroll for the Wizard level is nice, too.

Fast Movement and Uncanny Dodge are very good. Evasion is fantastic. Sneak Attack goes well with ray attacks. Some domains have extremely useful granted powers, balanced by the lousy domain spells that don't apply here; the Luck domain is the best core domain for this.

Track, Bardic Knowledge, the animal companion, Turn Undead, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, etc. are just fluff at this point. We could completely ignore them. And don't knock Rage; I played a Bar/Sor for quite a while, and it comes in VERY handy to be able to raise your CON and Will saves on short notice. Sure, you can't cast spells while Raging, but combined with polymorphing spells or Tenser's Transformation, you can do some fun stuff; again, though, you could completely ignore this ability. Oh, and in my original list I left out a Favored Enemy and a Ranger combat style (another free Feat!)

This character is FAR, far more powerful than the straight caster could ever be.

 

[Sadrik]

I think you would have to limit the character to a maximum of three classes (like 1st ed.). Then, they wouldnt be too out of control like the 14th level sorcerer.

Also, favored classes could be the way to limit too. Keep the rules exactly as they are in this reguard. They suffer an xp penalty if they go into a class when they are 2 or more levels apart, but you can always ignore your favored class. That should work with the 3 class max.

Oh and you also would have to use the virtual level for feats and ability boosts. And skill points would have to work like hit points.

 

[orangefruitbat]

Well, this is a pretty abusive test of variant (which is good to see). I'm inclined to cap a character with 3 or 4 classes max. And one of them should be your favored class.

You are correct in that this character would get a lot of skills and some nifty powers. Now most of those skills are capped at 4 or 5, which isn't so great for a 15th level character.
Regarding HP, you only get the best HD at each level. So the 2 barbarian levels replace your 1st 2d4 with 2d12, but the rest don't help. Plus you lose 1 HD from not taking the 15th level of sorcerer. So you'd be up 9 or 10 HP or so (8+(6.5-2.5)-(2.5+Con bonus)).

Your BAB is no better (though you now have some weapon proficiencies), and your saves are worse in Fortitude and Reflex than a straight sorcerer. Plus you know one less 5th, 6th and 7th level spells. I'd only allow one familiar.

Is this more powerful than a straight sorcerer? He's got a few extra tricks, but I don't think he's significantly better. Evasion, uncanny dodge and the fast moves are the best things you're getting. But 15th level characters are crazy powerful and getting a 1 HD animal companion isn't going to shift the balance.

I don't have my books in front of me, but this still looks horribly, horribly unbalanced unless you REALLY limit multiclassing. Compare two characters:
Character 1: 15th level Sorcerer (105k XP?)
Character 2: Sor 14/Ftr 2/Rog 2/Bbn 2/Clr 1/Dru 1/Brd 1/Wiz 1 (104k XP)
So, character 2 requires slightly less XP. In exchange for a single level of spellcasting, 2+INT skill points, and a d4 hit die, he gains 21 HP, 3 feats (two fighter feats and Scribe Scroll), Sneak Attack 1d6, Evasion, Rage, Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, a domain ability, an animal companion and a familiar. Oh, and 42+(10xINT) more skill points, which is probably more than he had to begin with, with a MUCH better list of skills to choose from.

It's actually not even a question of that kind of rampant multiclassing; it just illustrates the point. With this change, there's almost no reason for a high-level spellcaster not to take a single level of Rogue (for skill points), Barbarian (for HP), or Fighter (for HP and a Feat). Get a few HPs, some weapon skills, and maybe some armor profs you won't use. Sure, you'd be better off taking all three, but let's assume the worst case and pretend you limited it so harshly that no extra multiclassing would be allowed; it'd STILL be too strong. It might be okay for the 5/5 or 7/7 you're talking about, but that wouldn't make the 15/1 any less unbalanced. Any high-level caster who didn't take a side level would be far weaker than one who did.

So, you'd have to limit it in a way that only penalized the lopsided multiclassing. For instance, you could add two rules:
1> You can only do this if your highest class is your racial Favored Class.
2> And, you can't multiclass this way if the resulting levels would result in an XP penalty, assessed BEFORE taking into account racial favored classes.
So, the 7/7 is fine, but 8/6 or 10/1 isn't, regardless of race.

Personally, I'd say drop the whole idea and stick with Prestige Classes like the Eldritch Knight or Mystic Theurge if you want to mix caster levels with something else. They're much easier to balance.

 

[Spatzimaus]

You are correct in that this character would get a lot of skills and some nifty powers. Now most of those skills are capped at 4 or 5, which isn't so great for a 15th level character.

Clarify, please: If I've got a Rogue 5/Ranger 5 under your system, is his max Hide rank 8, or 13? If it's the first, then yes, it's not really a big deal, but then you're REALLY penalizing a multiclasser when compared to a straight class.

Plus, don't underestimate the effects of 5 ranks in an opposed skill. Take Hide, for instance.
If my Hide modifier equals my enemy's Spot modifier, I have a 47.5% chance of winning, a 5% chance of tying, and a 47.5% chance of losing a straight opposed roll.
With a +5 modifier, that changes to a 70% chance of winning, 3.75% chance of tying, and a 26.25% chance of losing.

Now, at 15th level you're not going to be able to use it to hide from another 15th level who's been raising Spot constantly, but it WILL allow you to greatly improve your chances against someone who doesn't have Spot as a class skill. Remember, most players don't spend many points cross-class, so why would the NPCs? Likewise, adding 5 ranks to Spot would greatly help you to see anyone who hasn't been raising their Hide skill.
And then there's Bluff, Diplomacy, Tumble, Appraise, the various Knowledge skills... any one of these would benefit from a few extra ranks. Oh, and how about Use Magic Device? VERY handy to have.
And my favorite: Speak Languages. Sure, you have Tongues and such, but knowing extra languages is still useful.

Regarding HP, you only get the best HD at each level. So the 2 barbarian levels replace your 1st 2d4 with 2d12, but the rest don't help.

I see. Not a bad idea, but then the question becomes, why don't skill points work this way? That is, if your first class gets 2+INT skill points and you add a level of Rogue, why not just say that you only get 6 skill points for the Rogue level? And if you then added a level of Fighter, you'd get no skill points since it's less than the Rogue amount? This'd completely shut down the skill benefit of rampant multiclassing.

Your BAB is no better (though you now have some weapon proficiencies), and your saves are worse in Fortitude and Reflex than a straight sorcerer. Plus you know one less 5th, 6th and 7th level spells. I'd only allow one familiar.

A Sor/Wiz only gets one familiar already; the levels stack for determining its abilities.
And, if you're already doing HP in the "best of each level" way, and switch skill points to the same, why not do this for BAB and Saves also? You'd have to do it in a fractional way, and for saves you wouldn't want to allow the level 1 +2 bonus for your later classes, but it could still be done. So, in this case: you'd gain +1 BAB since two Barbarian or Fighter levels give +2 instead of the Sor's +1. You'd also probably gain a point in Fortitude or Reflex, although I'm not going to work that one out.

That's not my real point, though. When comparing a 15 Sor to a 14/2/2/2/1/1/1/1, then yes, you sacrifice some spellcasting, and that helps balance things a bit. But as someone who played a multiclassed Sorcerer (Aristocrat 1/Sorcerer 14... and yes, I took a level of an NPC class, by choice!) at these levels, I can tell you that there's already plenty of reasons to do this. Sure, you lose a few high-level spell slots, and delay access to the 8th and 9th-level spells, but by that point you've already got more spell slots than you know what to do with, and the most "fun" spells are all in the 3rd-5th range, IMO. So the loss in spellcasting isn't bad, but the added skills and abilities of the side class are very nice. Adding in all the extras your system only makes that nicer.

But I'm not worried about the person who sacrifices a level of their caster class... I'm worried about someone who DOESN'T. A Wizard in his teens requires more than 10,000 XP to gain a level. Sacrificing only 1000 XP to gain the benefits of a level of Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, or Ranger is NOTHING. Most of the time, you won't be comparing a 15th-level caster to a 14th with some side abilities; you'll be comparing a 15th to a 15th, because the sacrificed XP won't slow you down enough to be noticeable.
Plus, most high-level Wizards I know are willing to spend hundreds or even thousands of XP on new magic items. So it's not like this'd suddenly be a new situation. If I could have spent 1000 XP on my Sorcerer to gain the abilities without sacrificing a whole level, I'd have done it in a second.

So under your system, someone in his teens has no reason not to add another class or two. It's not even a caster issue, really. A Ranger will add a level of Barbarian for the HP and speed boost; a Fighter will add a level of Rogue for the skill points; a Rogue will add a level of Fighter for the weapon proficiencies and feat. There's just no real downside to the system.

 

[orangefruitbat]

Incidentally, I really like the tough questions you're asking as it forces me to work out the kinks in the system. Now to the speciifics.

Max hide ranks are 8. Keep in mind that under this system, Rogue 5/Ranger 5 is only 20,000 XP (level 6, almost 7), not 45,000 (level 10). So, you're only 1 rank behind a single-classed character at this point. The idea is to allow characters to quickly gain low levels of skills easily, but make mastery more challenging.

really only as

Clarify, please: If I've got a Rogue 5/Ranger 5 under your system, is his max Hide rank 8, or 13? If it's the first, then yes, it's not really a big deal, but then you're REALLY penalizing a multiclasser when compared to a straight class.

Currently, a 5th, 10th or 15th level sorcerer will NEVER be able to spot anyone with ranks in hide. Most classes get far too few skill points and cross-class skills cost too much. Most PCs have exactly 0 skill points in something or level+3 skill points (so the sorcerer will probably have spellcraft, concentration and bluff). My house rule is intended to allow characters to get a few ranks in their non-core skills. If I were a 15th level sorcerer (I wish!), spending 1000 XP to get a level in rogue so I can have listen and spot at 4 might make sense. But spending 15,000 XP (current rules) doesn't.

Plus, don't underestimate the effects of 5 ranks in an opposed skill. Take Hide, for instance.
If my Hide modifier equals my enemy's Spot modifier, I have a 47.5% chance of winning, a 5% chance of tying, and a 47.5% chance of losing a straight opposed roll.
With a +5 modifier, that changes to a 70% chance of winning, 3.75% chance of tying, and a 26.25% chance of losing.

Now, at 15th level you're not going to be able to use it to hide from another 15th level who's been raising Spot constantly, but it WILL allow you to greatly improve your chances against someone who doesn't have Spot as a class skill. Remember, most players don't spend many points cross-class, so why would the NPCs? Likewise, adding 5 ranks to Spot would greatly help you to see anyone who hasn't been raising their Hide skill.
And then there's Bluff, Diplomacy, Tumble, Appraise, the various Knowledge skills... any one of these would benefit from a few extra ranks. Oh, and how about Use Magic Device? VERY handy to have.
And my favorite: Speak Languages. Sure, you have Tongues and such, but knowing extra languages is still useful.

From a consistency standpoint, they probably should. A sorcerer 15 who took 1 level of fighter wouldn't get 6 skill points, but if you took a level of rogue, you would get 6. And this would fix a potential rule abuse. But the whole purpose of my house rule is to allow characters to get some ranks in a new skill on the cheap. Plus, you could run into a problem when your rogue multiclassed into wizard, but didn't get any skill points to learn spellcraft. Intuitively, learning a new class should mean that you become skilled in that class.

I see. Not a bad idea, but then the question becomes, why don't skill points work this way? That is, if your first class gets 2+INT skill points and you add a level of Rogue, why not just say that you only get 6 skill points for the Rogue level? And if you then added a level of Fighter, you'd get no skill points since it's less than the Rogue amount? This'd completely shut down the skill benefit of rampant multiclassing.

Just with skills, BAB and saves, class abilities don't stack. Otherwise, a sorcerer 5/wizard 5 (20,000 XP) could the same familiar than a straight wizard 10 (45,000 XP).

A Sor/Wiz only gets one familiar already; the levels stack for determining its abilities.
And, if you're already doing HP in the "best of each level" way, and switch skill points to the same, why not do this for BAB and Saves also? You'd have to do it in a fractional way, and for saves you wouldn't want to allow the level 1 +2 bonus for your later classes, but it could still be done. So, in this case: you'd gain +1 BAB since two Barbarian or Fighter levels give +2 instead of the Sor's +1. You'd also probably gain a point in Fortitude or Reflex, although I'm not going to work that one out.

It's not the loss of spell slots that hurts a sorcerer, it's the loss of spells known. But I get your point.

That's not my real point, though. When comparing a 15 Sor to a 14/2/2/2/1/1/1/1, then yes, you sacrifice some spellcasting, and that helps balance things a bit. But as someone who played a multiclassed Sorcerer (Aristocrat 1/Sorcerer 14... and yes, I took a level of an NPC class, by choice!) at these levels, I can tell you that there's already plenty of reasons to do this. Sure, you lose a few high-level spell slots, and delay access to the 8th and 9th-level spells, but by that point you've already got more spell slots than you know what to do with, and the most "fun" spells are all in the 3rd-5th range, IMO. So the loss in spellcasting isn't bad, but the added skills and abilities of the side class are very nice. Adding in all the extras your system only makes that nicer.

Under my system, you're spending 1000 XP for the ability to rage, a fighter feat, a die of sneak attack or favored enemy/tracking. It is pretty attractive, but I'm not sure it's worse than characters who spend XP on crafted items or permanent magic abilites. For a 1000 XP, a 15th level wizard could get the fighter feat or 45 cloud kill scrolls.

If you're worred about rampant multiclassing (and it could be a problem, I'd admit), I would suggest that you restrict muticlassing as follows:
effective character level (by XP)
1-10 2 classes allowed
11-15 3 classes allowed
16-20 4 classes allowed

But I'm not worried about the person who sacrifices a level of their caster class... I'm worried about someone who DOESN'T. A Wizard in his teens requires more than 10,000 XP to gain a level. Sacrificing only 1000 XP to gain the benefits of a level of Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, or Ranger is NOTHING. Most of the time, you won't be comparing a 15th-level caster to a 14th with some side abilities; you'll be comparing a 15th to a 15th, because the sacrificed XP won't slow you down enough to be noticeable.
Plus, most high-level Wizards I know are willing to spend hundreds or even thousands of XP on new magic items. So it's not like this'd suddenly be a new situation. If I could have spent 1000 XP on my Sorcerer to gain the abilities without sacrificing a whole level, I'd have done it in a second.

So under your system, someone in his teens has no reason not to add another class or two. It's not even a caster issue, really. A Ranger will add a level of Barbarian for the HP and speed boost; a Fighter will add a level of Rogue for the skill points; a Rogue will add a level of Fighter for the weapon proficiencies and feat. There's just no real downside to the system.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Most PCs have exactly 0 skill points in something or level+3 skill points.

Depends on the skill. For "key" skills like Concentration or Spellcraft, sure, although at high level this doesn't seem to be quite so common; once you've raised Concentration to where you can always cast defensively, there's less motivation to keep going.

But there are a lot of skills that benefit from a few ranks here and there.

If I were a 15th level sorcerer (I wish!), spending 1000 XP to get a level in rogue so I can have listen and spot at 4 might make sense. But spending 15,000 XP (current rules) doesn't.

And if that one level of Rogue only gave you those 8 skill ranks, I might agree, although it'd still strike me as a cheap cost for two Feat-equivalents (and that's assuming you don't let them add their INT mod to the skill points!). But you don't just get the skills, you also get the Sneak Attack, the weapon and armor proficiencies, and an extra hit point. This starts being worth the cost in the current rules.

Seriously, I played an Aristocrat/Sorcerer (later remade as an Aristocrat/Psion). Why? Because he got full weapon and armor proficiencies, and the Knowledges and Speak Languages as class skills. The Knowledges allowed him to get into Loremaster far more cheaply. You just wouldn't believe how useful this sort of combination can be to a large group.

Plus, you could run into a problem when your rogue multiclassed into wizard, but didn't get any skill points to learn spellcraft. Intuitively, learning a new class should mean that you become skilled in that class.

Think of it this way: most classes have a few "core" skills, but they also give a couple extra skill points for the fluff you pick up along the way. You want to give enough points to make sure they can build up the core skills, but you don't want to duplicate the fluff. So first, no extra skill points for high INT. If you're not allowing someone to get extra HP for high CON when they add an extra class, do the same here.
Second, you could add a minimum, or reduce the number. For instance, here's a couple options:
1> You get (1 + half the base skill points of your new class), regardless of your old class. Multiclass to a Rogue, and you get a flat 5 skill points. Multiclass to a Wizard or Fighter and you only get 2. Just enough to pay for your core skills.
2> You get the difference in skill points, but with a flat minimum of 2 points. This only hurts people who multiclass from one high-skill class (Rogue/Ranger/Bard) to another.

It's not the loss of spell slots that hurts a sorcerer, it's the loss of spells known.

Only up to a point, usually around level 12ish. Once my Sorcerer reached the teens, he knew a bit of everything, and the spells known stopped being the limiting factor. By that point you'll have a few travel spells, a half-dozen attacks, a couple defensive spells, etc. Sure, you'll always want newer and bigger nukes, but you no longer need to worry about whether you have enough utility.
And coincidentally, this is the level where you start seeing people spend more and more XP on items, which is exactly why the cheap 1000 XP cost worries me.

For a 1000 XP, a 15th level wizard could get the fighter feat or 45 cloud kill scrolls.

Again, no. For 1000 XP, a 15th level Wizard could get a Feat, 3 HP, maybe a couple skill points, and full weapon and armor proficiencies. Don't trivialize it by pretending they only get a single class ability. And I would FAR prefer this to a pile of scrolls.

If you're worred about rampant multiclassing

Pyrex's idea is good for this one, actually. The first extra class is LA+1 (1000 XP for level 1, 3000 for level 2, etc.), the second is LA+2 (3000 for L1, 6000 for L2), and so on. I hate arbitrary limitations, which is what you'd have if you just capped the number of classes.

The most problematic part of this system, though, is that it's very skewed. A Wizard taking a level of Fighter benefits FAR more than a Fighter taking a level of Wizard. This has always been somewhat true, but it's even more pronounced now; the Wiz X/Ftr 1 gets a Feat, 3 HP, weapons, and armor; the Ftr X/Wiz 1 only gets a familiar and a couple low-level spells (which, as you've pointed out, are near-useless at that level). So, it's not just that it encourages people to add a single level of a class; because of how you've structured it, it encourages them to add a single level of Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, or Ranger.

Bottom line: it's not the "rampant" multiclassing that I think's the problem, it's the "unbalanced" multiclassing. Allowing someone to be a 15/1 is just going to remain a problem, IMO.

 

[orangefruitbat]

Ooh, I like it.

One approach I used to curb this problem in another thread about a similar multiclassing concept was that XP wise each additional class incurs an additional +1 LA penalty on the XP chart.

i.e.
Initial class L1=0xp, L2=1000xp, L2=3000xp, etc
Second class (first multiclass) L1=1000xp, L2=3000xp, etc
Third class (second multiclass) L1=3000xp, L2=6000xp, etc
And so on.

Which tied into the bottom-up Gestalt variant Korimyr described in post 5.

 

[Sadrik]

I like the LA+1 per additional class.

First class LA+0
Second class LA+1
Third class LA+2
Etc.

Also, using the already written multi-class rules is important. Stay within one or two levels of your other classes or you pay an xp penalty.

One small alteration should be included. Favored classes allow that class to be within four. So an elf fighter/wizard/rogue could be 2/6/2. If the elf were to ever go to 2/7/2 he would suffer an xp penalty

 

[Sadrik]

This system could be used as another way to offset the steep cost of some LA races. Count them as your first class. Then as you move up in level the cost of taking the race begins to disappear.
LA+1=1,000
LA+2=3,000
LA+3=6,000


So for instance, take a 1st level drow fighter.
First class (drow LA+2 so it would count as level 3) 3,000xp
Second class (fighter level 1) 1,000 xp.
They would have 4,000 xp at 1st but as they go up in level that 3,000xp penalty becomes smaller and smaller.

Races that have monster levels would work the same way too. They would be the second class.

So for instance, a bugbear (from memory) has a LA+2 and two monster levels. The LA+2 would count as his first class his monster levels as his second class and if it was a fighter too on top of that, that would be its third class.
First class (Bugbear LA+2) 3,000xp
Second class (2 Bugbear monster levels) 3,000xp
Third class (Fighter level 2) 6,000xp
The bugbear would be 12,000xp or equal to a fifth level character (5th level 10,000)