Crazy Multiclassing Idea

[genshou]

This system could be used as another way to offset the steep cost of some LA races. Count them as your first class. Then as you move up in level the cost of taking the race begins to disappear.
LA+1=1,000
LA+2=3,000
LA+3=6,000


So for instance, take a 1st level drow fighter.
First class (drow LA+2 so it would count as level 3) 3,000xp
Second class (fighter level 1) 1,000 xp.
They would have 4,000 xp at 1st but as they go up in level that 3,000xp penalty becomes smaller and smaller.

Races that have monster levels would work the same way too. They would be the second class.

So for instance, a bugbear (from memory) has a LA+2 and two monster levels. The LA+2 would count as his first class his monster levels as his second class and if it was a fighter too on top of that, that would be its third class.
First class (Bugbear LA+2) 3,000xp
Second class (2 Bugbear monster levels) 3,000xp
Third class (Fighter level 2) 6,000xp
The bugbear would be 12,000xp or equal to a fifth level character (5th level 10,000)

Brilliant! Superb! Fantastic! Too bad I'm already using gestalt classes in my current campaigns.

 

[Pyrex]

One small alteration should be included. Favored classes allow that class to be within four. So an elf fighter/wizard/rogue could be 2/6/2. If the elf were to ever go to 2/7/2 he would suffer an xp penalty

Why change the Favored Class rules at all? I really don't see an need for an Elven Ftr2/Wiz6/Rog2 to be paying an XP penalty under this system. Ftr6/Wiz2/Rog2 *would* have the penalty though, just as in the standard rules.

 

[Sadrik]

Why change the Favored Class rules at all? I really don't see an need for an Elven Ftr2/Wiz6/Rog2 to be paying an XP penalty under this system. Ftr6/Wiz2/Rog2 *would* have the penalty though, just as in the standard rules.

Well, because I think that it gets too out of hand if the characters picks up a couple class levels when they are high level. You wind up with the 14/2/2/2/1/1/1/1 character. This happenes because you are gaining so much xp at the upper levels spending a thousand here and there becomes easy.

That is why I came up with the 4 apart rule. There should be a window of opportunity to pick up classes with this system (without an xp penalty). If the character wants to multi-class those decisions should be made earlier in their career as opposed to, "I have so much xp what should I do with it..."

Also, as a side note xp should be described a little differently. Characters get an xp pool and then spend the xp to buy their classes as opposed to just haveing a running xp total.

 

[CrusadeDave]

I pondered this a while ago, and came up with a variation of it.

All multiclassing results in Gestaulting. If you're a fighter 4, and pick up a level of Barbarian for 1000 XP, You replace your first d10's with a d12 (giving yourself 2 hp), give yourself rage, fast movement, and 2 extra skill points, though your max skill ranks do not increase, nor does your BAB, or your saves.

As you now have a second class, your LA goes up one. So you gain XP as a 5th level character even though you have 4HD. So A Fighter 10/Barb 8 is an ECL 11, as is a Fighter 10/Barb 2, thought the Barb 8 spent an extra 33K of XP to get there, when he could have leveled up at least twice.

Everytime you Gestalt in a new class you add an additional LA. So A Fighter 10/Barb 1/Rogue 1 is an ECL 12. A Fighter 10/Barb 6/Ranger 8/Rogue 6/Monk 5 is an ECL 14.

This does 2 things, first, the penalty for a caster picking up that "cheap" level for 1000XP, is a slower XP gain to get what he really wants, which is higher spellcasting levels. Second, since you're Gestaulting, you're not increasing max skill ranks, or the number of HD, or the Saving throws past their good save maximum, it becomes very expensive to continue in many classes at once.

Now if you went nuts, which of course would result in: BAB +1/level, Skills 8+int per level, All good saves, Tons of Fighter Feats, +1d6 sneak attack every round, Greater Rage, full progression Wizard/Cleric/Druid spells. You'd have about 6 or 7 HD, at the time the straight cleric has Blasphemy and kills you outright, no save.

Regardless, is it better for a fighter to be a Fighter 12/Barbarian 12 Gestault, or a Fighter 20, or Barbarian 20. A Wizard 12/Rogue 12 Gestault or a Wizard 20?

 

[Spatzimaus]

That is why I came up with the 4 apart rule. There should be a window of opportunity to pick up classes with this system (without an xp penalty). If the character wants to multi-class those decisions should be made earlier in their career as opposed to, "I have so much xp what should I do with it..."

Well, I sort of disagree with that. One of the things I've always liked about the 3E system (as opposed to the older stuff) was that you COULD change the direction of your character as you went up in level. If a 15th level Wizard wants to take a level of Fighter, he should be able to. You can do some of this with Prestige Classes, of course, but PrCs shouldn't be used for things that can be handled purely by core classes, IMO.

So the question is: assuming we want to balance the high-level multiclassing that leads to the sorts of problems I've mentioned, what's the solution? Allow players to do the 3E-style ECL+1 multiclassing as well? Add a large penalty for unbalanced multiclassing?

On a different note, I had one other concern about this whole thing: How do you figure ECL? You need to know what sort of challenges your character is capable of facing, after all; do you just add the XP costs and translate it back to a single-class level? That works okay when the XP costs are large (like for the templates some people take), but if we're only talking about 1000XP, it's different. Plus, this means that whatever penalty you add for unbalanced multiclassing needs to be something that can be reverse-engineered; that is, someone looking at the character sheet should be able to immediately know how much XP was spent to add that other class, without having to know exactly when the class was taken.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Interesting idea. Probaby way too much work for the guys in my group to bother with but it seems like it has got a lot of merit.

I would like to suggest that if you go with this system that you tweak a couple feats or create some new feats to reward any "pure" classed character. If someone devotes their ENTIRE career to the pursuit of one ideal they should get something for it, not just several extra spells per level or whatnot.

DS

 

[apesamongus]

It would work great if it weren't got the escalating XP cost of levels and the corresponding increase in XP gain. At level 20, 1000xp just isn't that big a cost.

 

[genshou]

It would work great if it weren't got the escalating XP cost of levels and the corresponding increase in XP gain. At level 20, 1000xp just isn't that big a cost.

I agree with you, as do many here it seems.

Pyrex's idea with incremental LA for additional classes has a great deal of merit. I'd consider limiting the number of additional classes based on a fraction of the highest class level, as well. I believe it was Sadrik who suggested this, but don't quote me on that.

Really the only problem I see here is with complexity.

On a different note, I had one other concern about this whole thing: How do you figure ECL? You need to know what sort of challenges your character is capable of facing, after all; do you just add the XP costs and translate it back to a single-class level? That works okay when the XP costs are large (like for the templates some people take), but if we're only talking about 1000XP, it's different. Plus, this means that whatever penalty you add for unbalanced multiclassing needs to be something that can be reverse-engineered; that is, someone looking at the character sheet should be able to immediately know how much XP was spent to add that other class, without having to know exactly when the class was taken.

My thoughts exactly... :\

 

[Sadrik]

Well, I sort of disagree with that. One of the things I've always liked about the 3E system (as opposed to the older stuff) was that you COULD change the direction of your character as you went up in level. If a 15th level Wizard wants to take a level of Fighter, he should be able to. You can do some of this with Prestige Classes, of course, but PrCs shouldn't be used for things that can be handled purely by core classes, IMO.

The 15th level wizard could do that. But to buy the fighter level he would have to pay the xp penalty too. It is just a further balancing cost so that you dont get the 14/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1 character.

So the question is: assuming we want to balance the high-level multiclassing that leads to the sorts of problems I've mentioned, what's the solution? Allow players to do the 3E-style ECL+1 multiclassing as well? Add a large penalty for unbalanced multiclassing?

Yes, I think so. What the system looks like right now is it benefits those who want to be multi classed more to be balanced rather than those who are high level and just want to pick up one or two class levels. Again it doesnt remove that option it just puts a hurdle to cross to do that. (The hurdle is not that big) The 15th level wizard wants to pick up 1 level in fighter. 1,000xp for ECL+1 +20% xp penalty for not being balanced so 1,200xp. That is how I have it written right now.

Hmm, maybe the xp penalty should increase the farther seperated you are from where you should be. Assuming the wizard in question is human he could choose wizard to be his favored class. Any other classes should be within four. He doesnt do that if he buys 1 level of another class. So, the xp penalty would be based on this equation: (Unbalanced # [2 or 4] - most unbalanced class level x 10%). In the case of the wizard it would be 4 - 15 = 11 x 10% = 110% xp penalty. So 110% of 1,000xp would be 2,100xp to gain the fighter level. Still, a very small sum for such a high level character.

On a different note, I had one other concern about this whole thing: How do you figure ECL? You need to know what sort of challenges your character is capable of facing, after all; do you just add the XP costs and translate it back to a single-class level? That works okay when the XP costs are large (like for the templates some people take), but if we're only talking about 1000XP, it's different. Plus, this means that whatever penalty you add for unbalanced multiclassing needs to be something that can be reverse-engineered; that is, someone looking at the character sheet should be able to immediately know how much XP was spent to add that other class, without having to know exactly when the class was taken.

I would say the solution would be simple, add up the the xp and look at the xp chart and that would be your ECL. You already have to do that for your feats and ability boosts so it shouldnt be too bad to do it for your ECL.