D&D 5E Create a 5e Psion

[overgeeked]

I'm all for simplicity. So take the wizard. Use spell points instead of slots, only remove the level caps but inflict damage on the caster for exceeding those caps. Every use of psionic power requires a roll. If they fail, they lose half the spell points they would have used for the power. Use the rules for Creating a Spell (DMG, p238) for every use of psionic powers. Give the character one or two themes they have to stick with. Telekinetic, telepathic, bioshaping, etc. Let the psion go wild within that framework. They're 1st level and want to pump 3 spell points into throwing a 2nd-level equivalent telekinetic punch that deals 3d10 to one target or 4d6 to multiple targets? Let them.

 

[FallenRX]

KibblesTasty Psion
LaserLlama Psion

My main difficulty with the Kibbles Psion is its lack of always-on cantrips. Is it actually a half-caster that lacks access to high-slot spell effects? That would be a huge problem.

The LaserLlama Psion with both cantrips and high slot-9 spells might be closer to the 3e Psion that is relevant here. But part of its text is missing, being placed to the right off the edge of the pdf page. It is unclear what mechanics it has that can cast the high-slot spells.

It does have always on cantrip like powers, in disciplines and higher level spell slots ala warlock using Innate Psionic Ability

 

[bloodtide]

What even is a "Psion"? D&D has all ways had them as Sorcerers, and that is so boring. Just take the arcane spell list, and change a couple of spell names to be "psionic" or "mind". So it's a Mind Fire Ball, but it still does 1d6 fire damage. Maybe add a couple not really different spells....psychic Crush does 12d6 force damage.

But all you are doing is making a fluff Sorcerer. "I use my mind powers to cast the spell mental bolt to do 2d6 force damage". You might as well just made a Sorcerer.

It's bad enough that sorcerers and wizards are nearly exactly the same and cast exactly the same spells. Clerics and Druids at least get their own spell lists.

Must a D&D Psion be a blaster that does fire, force and other damage? Is that the only way to be a casting class in D&D?

 

[Yaarel]

What even is a "Psion"? D&D has all ways had them as Sorcerers, and that is so boring. Just take the arcane spell list, and change a couple of spell names to be "psionic" or "mind". So it's a Mind Fire Ball, but it still does 1d6 fire damage. Maybe add a couple not really different spells....psychic Crush does 12d6 force damage.

But all you are doing is making a fluff Sorcerer. "I use my mind powers to cast the spell mental bolt to do 2d6 force damage". You might as well just made a Sorcerer.

It's bad enough that sorcerers and wizards are nearly exactly the same and cast exactly the same spells. Clerics and Druids at least get their own spell lists.

Must a D&D Psion be a blaster that does fire, force and other damage? Is that the only way to be a casting class in D&D?

There is a camp that wants "psionics" to become a silo for experimental mechanics.

That is why I feel there needs to be two separate Psion classes, one is the fullcaster with normal spellcasting mechanics, and the other is experimental mechanics.

For the experimental mechanics, it could be anything. Maybe the experimental class uses Fighter superiority dice to manifest psionic effects.



But the fullcaster is important. I like psionic flavor − the personal innate magic of the mind. I want it to be a normal part of D&D. It seems that D&D players today also like psionic flavor, and like normal core mechanics. Where psionics is normal, it is most likely to continue to enjoy support from future designers.



Regarding the Sorcerer class, I am less enthusiastic about it, both because of its subpar and fiddly mechanics and because of its redundancy with Warlock flavor. The Warlock is the better class mechanically, and its narrative makes more sense if the "pact" with the magical entity actually transform the Warlock in some way. Indeed a "pact" made by the character, or a bloodline from an ancestor who made a "pact", is the same thing. The Sorcerer design space seems mostly obsolete. In 3e it was important because it was a spontaneous alternative to vancian spell casting mechanics. In 4e, every class used to the same power mechanics, so they tried to reinvent the Sorcerer as a damage-dealer. In 5e, every spellcaster is spontaneous, the damage dealing gets traded out for other kind of effects for magic, and the Sorcerer has an identity crisis. In any case, referring to the Sorcerer is less likely to get interest or buy-in from me.

 

[humble minion]

The problem with the warlock is that, in its current form, in play it tends to default to being an Eldritch Blast spammer. Which is not particularly psionicky, in my book. So if you're going this design direction, you'd basically need an entire new suite of invocations to fix up the flavour. Which is far from impossible of course, but it's a complexity and balance headache.

 

[Yaarel]

The problem with the warlock is that, in its current form, in play it tends to default to being an Eldritch Blast spammer. Which is not particularly psionicky, in my book. So if you're going this design direction, you'd basically need an entire new suite of invocations to fix up the flavour. Which is far from impossible of course, but it's a complexity and balance headache.

D&D can be a combat game, primarily. Damage dealing is often more valuable than other options. So, Eldritch Blast is attractive. Then the Warlock Invocations that buff Eldritch Blast even more make it a go-to. It is the Invocations that are encouraging Eldritch Blast.

I am referring to Psion Invocations as "Talents".

I am unsure what the Talents will look like. But each Talent can be a different kind of mechanic. Some grant a capability. Some modify a spell. And so on.

The Talents are a great design space for any "weird mechanics". The player can choose whichever Talents are the ones that match the players gaming-style preference and character concept.

As long as the Talents are well balanced, and each one really does deserve whatever level prereq is assigned to it, then each Talent becomes competitive. All being good choices can make the Psion class interesting.

Regarding the flavor. I can see how a Talent that deals heavy force damage can make sense for the Telekinete discipline. But other telekinetic options need to be desirable options too, and this goes back to real balance. Meanwhile the other disciplines will have their own Talents to spice up their capabilities.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Regarding the Sorcerer class, I am less enthusiastic about it, both because of its subpar and fiddly mechanics and because of its redundancy with Warlock flavor. The Warlock is the better class mechanically, and its narrative makes more sense if the "pact" with the magical entity actually transform the Warlock in some way. Indeed a "pact" made by the character, or a bloodline from an ancestor who made a "pact", is the same thing. The Sorcerer design space seems mostly obsolete. In 3e it was important because it was a spontaneous alternative to vancian spell casting mechanics. In 4e, every class used to the same power mechanics, so they tried to reinvent the Sorcerer as a damage-dealer. In 5e, every spellcaster is spontaneous, the damage dealing gets traded out for other kind of effects for magic, and the Sorcerer has an identity crisis. In any case, referring to the Sorcerer is less likely to get interest or buy-in from me.

If I was one day to do my own PHB, this is what I'd do:

• Warlock becomes a background. Its a roleplay thing: you are an agent for a powerful entities, you gain a tony messager fiend/fey/undead/dragon NPC (ala Knight background) to ask query to their patron.
• Sorcerer becomes...a race! Magic resistance, inspiration from aberrant dragonmark with a pinch of Hexblood. Pick or roll for your tells and weird appearance, like OG tieflings. You are born with magic blood for reasons, just like other plane-touched, why does one becomes a class and the other a race?
• Warlock spellcasting is moved to cleric, make divine and arcane somewhat different.
• The sorcerer's thing, if we can even call it that, is given to a psion: component less casting, spell points, Augmentations (aka metamagic) etc

 

[toucanbuzz]

My players extensively playtested the Korranberg Chronicles Psion, which already had playtest and costs $ on DMs Guild. My thoughts.

1. If you're going to use existing spells, spell points, or variations on spells, you're not really creating a new class. A new class stands alone.
2. D&D co-creator Gygax wasn't a fan of psionics, good article starts here. A good start is that it works for monsters (e.g the mind flayer). Doesn't translate well to PCs.
3. Even in AD&D, the psionic powers were mostly repackaged spells.
4. If you're repackaging spells, why bother. You're not making a new class.
5. Psionics have been an integral part of literature and lore for D&D since the 70s. Gygax aside, audiences love it. See Dark Sun.
6. You can't have mechanics where the turn of a Psion occupies more time than a default Fighter or Wizard. It needs to be easy.

In design, a Psion needs to occupy a niche that no one else does. That's rough. No components, no somatics, no verbals? And should psionics incorporate (like in AD&D) multiple "schools" just like magic?

I'd take inspiration off psionic monsters. We're talking mind flayer mass stun, etc.. This would include a point system to augment existing 1/rest (long or short) abilities. These abilities should be for augmenting one's body, manipulating minds, or short-distance affect (e.g. like misty step or a short-distance disintegrate). Consideration should be paid, however, to a counter. What cancels psions? Wizards know their foes probably get a save. Fighters know they need to hit a target AC. Psions?

 

[Yaarel]

From what I can tell from the sample, the Korranberg Psion uses the Wizard spell point system in the Dungeon Master Guide, except Korranberg has many more points than the Wizard at high levels. The difference is because the spell point costs of the Korranberg are the same as the 3e Psion. It differs notably from the 5e costs in the DMG.

I'd take inspiration off psionic monsters. We're talking mind flayer mass stun, etc.. This would include a point system to augment existing 1/rest (long or short) abilities. These abilities should be for augmenting one's body, manipulating minds, or short-distance affect (e.g. like misty step or a short-distance disintegrate).

Certain monster features work well as a psionic spell. You mention the mindflayer mass stun feature. I am also thinking the "Wings" of many races and monsters, unlike "Fly", needs to be a slot-2 spell. The Shapeshifter Psion would be awesome when gaining access to sprouting wings.

Spells have a "At Higher Levels" entry, where players can augment the spell by upcasting it.

A spell point system can be "a point system to augment". That doesnt really relate to how monster features work. But there is a camp who wants to make the psionic power source a silo for experimental mechanics. That is why there needs to be two separate Psion classes. One class is for fans who like psionic flavor and dont want to deal with redundant mechanics that do the same thing that the official mechanics already do. The other class is for fans who like experimental mechanics.

What cancels psions? Wizards know their foes probably get a save. Fighters know they need to hit a target AC. Psions?

Saving throws cancel Psions. Same as all of the other spellcasting classes.

Heh, you mention Wizard versus Fighter, ... but seem to omit ... Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Druid, Cleric, and Warlock ... plus Ranger, Paladin, Trickster, Eldritch Knight, and others. They all know their foes probably get a save.

If you're going to use existing spells, spell points, or variations on spells, you're not really creating a new class. A new class stands alone. ... In design, a Psion needs to occupy a niche that no one else does.

Many 5e classes are somewhat redundant with each other.

Conceivably, the Fighter class can include Barbarian, Ranger, and Paladin, similar to the way it includes Samurai, Eldritch Knight, and Psi Warrior. Rogue can probably handle Monk. Apparently, enough players wanted Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, and Monk to be separate classes.



What matters is, there is a desire for the class. Or conversely, there is frustration when preexisting classes fail to satisfactorily represent all of the various archetypes, mechanics, and narratives relating to a character concept.

Compare the Artificer. It could have been a Wizard, but Artificer fans were unsatisfied with that approach.

 

[Yaarel]

I have been looking at the math of the spell points.

The 5e Dungeon Masters Guide, page 288, already has an official spell point system. But it hurts the eyes. Moreover, its precision doesnt factually represent the actual power of spell slots relative to each other, so its fiddly complexity is nonuseful. That said. As ballpark figures for roughly how much slots are worth, the DMG point system is helpful.

Both LaserLlama and KibblesTasty use a radically simplified spell point system.

Point cost = slot level

A slot-3 spell, like Fireball, costs 3 points.

This is the simplest point system possible.



Because the highest slots, 6, 7, 8, and 9, are removed from consideration, because they are "arcanums" rather than "spells", this spell point simplification balances adequately, when comparing to the DMG.

Relatively, the simplification means that the slot 1 spells are a bit cheaper, but the highest available spell slot while leveling is a bit more expensive.



With regard to the total amount of points to spend on spells, LaserLlama assigns level+1 points per short rest, while KibblesTasty assigns level points per short rest. In comparison to the DMG spell point costs for Warlock slots, I am leaning toward LaserLlama. The result is generous access to slot 1 spells, including two castings per short rest at level 1. But the higher available slots are closer to the DMG. By contrast, going by KibblesTasty is a bit subpar with regard to the higher available slots. Either way is pretty close, tho, so the difference can be accounted for by means of other features. For example, if level+1 points then perhaps less one cantrip, and if level points then there is some room for other features.

When comparing the official costs of Warlock slots per short rest versus Wizard slots per long rest, the Wizard just keeps on getting more and more powerful than the Warlock the higher the level the classes get. It starts off at 2 to 1 in favor of the Wizard at level 1 and increases to about 4.5 to 1 in favor of the Wizard at level 10. In other words, the Warlock needs to short rest once to match the Wizard at level 1, but needs to short rest three or four times to match the Wizard at level 10. To be fair, the Warlock is also gaining Invocations, but still. I stopped worrying about the "+1" of the "level+1 spell points" by LaserLlama. It is fine.



There are advantages to using spell points. The Warlock slots are always worth the maximum spell slot. This means using a slot to cast a lower slot level spell can "waste" some of the slot. By converting the Warlock slot into points, one can spend the points more economically for the lower slot level spells.



A note about multiclassing. Because the Psion class uses spells, and these spells have slot levels, it balances when combining with other classes. For example, a Psion/Druid can use spell points to cast a Druid spell, and use Druid slots to cast a Psion spell. It will roughly balance. Compare how a Bard/Warlock multiclass can legally use their slots interchangeably for the spells of the other class. It balances well enough.

There are many benefits to using standard mechanics.