Creating Scrolls with another caster

[Luis De Pippo]

Actually, every item creation feat says that you must know the spell prerequisites (Sorceror / Bard) or have them prepared (everyone else) for making any item.

That is where you are mistaken. Re-read the item creation feats:

Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion and Craft Wands say that you can create the appropiate item of any spell you know (subject to the limits of the feat).

Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff and Craft Woundrous Items say that you can create the appropiate item whose prerequisites you meet.

See the difference in wording? If you could use other casters then the feat would state that you must meet the prerequiste, not know the spell.

As I see it using the Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion or Craft Wands is a personal thing and no outside help can be used. While using Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff and Craft Woundrous Items can be a cooperative effort.

 

[Bad Paper]

Don't know if it's RAW or not, but in my campains, the owner of Scribe Scroll is the only person who can apply a spell to a scroll. There's no "hey take some dictation."

 

[Liquidsabre]

As I see it using the Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion or Craft Wands is a personal thing and no outside help can be used. While using Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff and Craft Woundrous Items can be a cooperative effort.

This is how we're currently running item crafting in our games. We're not 100% sure if this is by the RAW or not but it made the most sense to us.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

That is where you are mistaken. Re-read the item creation feats:

Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion and Craft Wands say that you can create the appropiate item of any spell you know (subject to the limits of the feat).

Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff and Craft Woundrous Items say that you can create the appropiate item whose prerequisites you meet.

See the difference in wording? If you could use other casters then the feat would state that you must meet the prerequiste, not know the spell.

That is where you are mistaken. Re-read the DMG rules on crafting items:

Creating Magic Armor (DMG p.285): "If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)..."

Creating Magic Weapons (DMG p.286): "If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)..."

Creating Rods (DMG p.286): "If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the rod, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)..."

Creating Staffs (DMG p.287): "The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)..."

Creating Wondrous Items (DMG p.288): "If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)..."

The mistake you are making is that you're focusing only on a particular section of the rules, rather than all of the item creation rules. The authors assume you have read the item creation rules, and know that prerequisites can be provided by individuals other than the creator; therefore, they don't bother to repeat that information every time they mention that "the creator" must meet certain prerequisites.

As I see it using the Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion or Craft Wands is a personal thing and no outside help can be used. While using Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff and Craft Woundrous Items can be a cooperative effort.

The creation of any magic item can be a cooperative effort. The "way you see it" is myopic.

 

[Shin Okada]

This is a kind of endless argument topic. Many DMs have different opinions.

My take is,

1) Prerequisites of an magic item can be provided by anyone.
A cleric can provide Cure Light Wounds spell for a wizard to make an arcane scroll of Cure Light Wounds for bards. An Elven Fighter can provide "being elf" for creating a boots of elven kind.

2) Still, someone who has the appropriate item creation feat must be the creator.
So, an elven fighter cannot provide XP for making a boots of elvenkind. The item creation rules says multiple character can co-operate. But the rule does not say someone without item creation feat can the creator (I know there are other ways to interpret the rule texts).

3) In case of scrolls, if the creator is an arcane caster, the scrolls become arcane ones, if the creator is an divine caster, the scrolls become divine one.

 

[Luis De Pippo]

The mistake you are making is that you're focusing only on a particular section of the rules, rather than all of the item creation rules. The authors assume you have read the item creation rules, and know that prerequisites can be provided by individuals other than the creator; therefore, they don't bother to repeat that information every time they mention that "the creator" must meet certain prerequisites.

Then why the different wording in the feats description? While not say that you can create any scroll, potion or wands whose prerequisites you meet? The different wording means that they have different rules. And a particular rule can trump a general rule, as it usually is more limited in a scope that a general one. In the old 3.0 version the general rule said that you could only cast a spell per round, yet if you were under a haste spell its particular rule said that you could cast two spells per round.

Returning to creating magical items as I read the section on prerequisites I note that you need certain things to create a magic item:

1) Feat
2) Enough caster level to make it work
3) the necessary spells
4) Some extra requeriment (must be a dwarf, must be a sorcerer, etc).

This is were scrolls, potions and wands are different. They do not need a fixed caster level as the creator chooses which caster level to use. The others prerequisites for the other items, if you wish, can be provided by someone else.

The rules also say that you can only use scrolls of those spells that are in your list, but you can create scroll of any list, provided you have another caster? It does not make sense from a rules point of view, but it also does not make sense from the world point of view.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Then why the different wording in the feats description? While not say that you can create any scroll, potion or wands whose prerequisites you meet?

Because scrolls, potions, and wands are all spell completion or spell trigger items; they never have non-spell prerequisites. Rods, wondrous items, and staves (such as a Staff of Power) do sometimes have other prerequisites.

The different wording means that they have different rules.

No. "It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of a magic item, but not if the item is a scroll, potion, or wand" would mean they have different rules.

Note that Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, and Craft Wondrous Item all say you can create any magic item "whose prerequisites you meet," yet you seem to recognize that doesn't mean only the creator can provide those prerequisites. Why, then, do you insist that only the creator must know the spell "that you know" to create scrolls, potions, or wands?

And a particular rule can trump a general rule, as it usually is more limited in a scope that a general one.

The fact that you recognize this makes it all the more baffling that you don't recognize how the particular rule for cooperating to create magic items trumps the general rule that the creator must provide the prerequisites (whether that prerequisite is "knows the spell required" or "has the feat required" or "has the necessary number of skill ranks" or whatever).

Returning to creating magical items as I read the section on prerequisites I note that you need certain things to create a magic item:

1) Feat
2) Enough caster level to make it work
3) the necessary spells
4) Some extra requeriment (must be a dwarf, must be a sorcerer, etc).

This is were scrolls, potions and wands are different. They do not need a fixed caster level as the creator chooses which caster level to use.

How is that different? The caster level of a wondrous item is no more "fixed" than that of a wand. The creator can set it at any level sufficient to meet the prerequisites given (and no higher than his own)...just like he can with a scroll, potion, or wand.

The rules also say that you can only use scrolls of those spells that are in your list, but you can create scroll of any list, provided you have another caster? It does not make sense from a rules point of view, but it also does not make sense from the world point of view.

Under your interpretation, it "does not make sense" that two casters could cooperate to craft a wand (spell trigger item) of a spell that is not on the spell list of the caster with the Craft Wand feat...but they could cooperate to craft a staff (also a spell trigger item) with spells that are not on the spell list of the caster with the Craft Staff feat, because the Craft Wand feat says "any 4th-level or lower spell that you know," but Craft Staff says "any staff whose prerequisites you meet"?

That is what doesn't make sense, my friend.

 

[Luis De Pippo]

Because scrolls, potions, and wands are all spell completion or spell trigger items; they never have non-spell prerequisites. Rods, wondrous items, and staves (such as a Staff of Power) do sometimes have other prerequisites.

No. "It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of a magic item, but not if the item is a scroll, potion, or wand" would mean they have different rules.

Note that Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, and Craft Wondrous Item all say you can create any magic item "whose prerequisites you meet," yet you seem to recognize that doesn't mean only the creator can provide those prerequisites. Why, then, do you insist that only the creator must know the spell "that you know" to create scrolls, potions, or wands?.

Because all those feats you mention above state that you should "see the Dungeon Master´s Guide for prerequisites and other information on ITEM", yet Scribe Scroll, Craft Wands and Brew Potion do not.

Why it is not clearly stated? I would think that the text "You can create a scroll of any spell that you know" is clear enough.

The fact that you recognize this makes it all the more baffling that you don't recognize how the particular rule for cooperating to create magic items trumps the general rule that the creator must provide the prerequisites (whether that prerequisite is "knows the spell required" or "has the feat required" or "has the necessary number of skill ranks" or whatever)..

Because to me, reading the DMG, that paragraph on prerequisites applies to all the magic items that have the description followed by CL, spells to cast, etc. Spell completion items are different because they just store the spell until it is used, they are not "permanent" magical items in the sense that a ring is. I could make an exception for wands, but reading the rules as I read them I would not .

Under your interpretation, it "does not make sense" that two casters could cooperate to craft a wand (spell trigger item) of a spell that is not on the spell list of the caster with the Craft Wand feat...but they could cooperate to craft a staff (also a spell trigger item) with spells that are not on the spell list of the caster with the Craft Staff feat, because the Craft Wand feat says "any 4th-level or lower spell that you know," but Craft Staff says "any staff whose prerequisites you meet"?

Because to me, as I explained above they are different kind of items that need different forms of creation. With some of them you can have help, with some of them no.

Something we have not talked about is this. If a clerics helps me create a scroll with clerical spell, is the resulting scroll arcane or clerical?

I am sure that we will never agree on this point but it has been fun seeing what other people think .

 

[Nail]

I would think that the text "You can create a scroll of any spell that you know" is clear enough.

Except each type of magic item neglects the "others can help" rule. It's assumed you've read that rule already. ...and as you demonstrate, that was a terrible assumption. I think we all wish the 3.5e authors had done a better job!!

Hey, don't take it badly....I missed that rule the first, second, and third time thru myself!

Because to me, reading the DMG, that paragraph on prerequisites applies to all the magic items that have the description followed by CL, spells to cast, etc. Spell completion items are different because they just store the spell until it is used,....

The prerequisites for spell completion items (scrolls) are stated => it's the spell put into them. The caster level is assumed to be the minimum possible, as stated in the description.

The difference you've fixated on between scrolls and rings (no CL, no "spells to cast", etc) doesn't exist.

Something we have not talked about is this. If a clerics helps me create a scroll with clerical spell, is the resulting scroll arcane or clerical?

Divine. Presumably the person that sets the caster level also sets the "arcane-ness" or "divine-ness".

 

[Hypersmurf]

Divine. Presumably the person that sets the caster level also sets the "arcane-ness" or "divine-ness".

The person that sets the caster level is 'the creator', which is also the person who determines arcane or divine, which is also the person who provides the XP.

However, the creator does not have to be the person supplying the spell. In theory, a 1st level cleric (with a spell) and a 10th level wizard (with a feat) can collaborate to produce an item that casts CLW at caster level 10, as long as the wizard supplies the XP.

If it were a scroll, it would be an arcane scroll.

-Hyp.