Criminal Underclass in the Campaign World

[Vaxalon]

Most of the things PCs purchase are not much impacted by technology, so for those the equivalency is not improper. Sure, modern echnology makes mass production possible, but that mainly means more available goods, not drastically lower costs in regards common things such as food and clothing.

Absolutely not true.

The price of food (as a percentage of an average person's daily 'labor budget') has gone down a HUGE amount in the past 200 years.

Before I go on, I should mention that 'labor budget' refers to the amount of time a person needs to work in order to either 1> produce the item in question or 2> earn enough money to buy it.

In the stone age, the labor budget for food sufficient (that is, bare minimum) for one adult was on the order of 4 hours.

In the agricultural age, that is, roman to late medieval time, it was on the order of 2 hours, because of the abandonment of hunting and gathering and the use of granaries of various sorts to store food over the winter.

In the renaissance, it went down to about one hour, mostly due to shifting cultivation.

With the advent of such things as fertilizer, mechanization, and factory farms, the labor cost has gone down to around ten minutes.

On what basis do you assert that personal economies have not changed in the last 200-300 years?

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Re: But... ARGH!

How can an SP be worth 10$ and a GP worth 500$ when 10 SP = 1 GP?

Should we make 1 SP equal to .02 GP and a CP equal to .002 GP?

Well sure, as I noted, the system would need to have coin values given substituted for another one so as to have the ratios indicated. Those values are not quite the actual here either. Gold is inflated to a 50:1 basis over silver, not 40:1. All of that is no matter as it is a game tool to get highly portable wealth, as gold was and is, that has fixed $ value.

Note the $ is just a symbol for one base unit of money, and one can call that base unit anything--bezant, crown, ducat, ecu, guilder, whatever.

By using a standard as suggested, then all changes in values outside the state in which the campaign is set have a base line against which to measure.

Cheerio,
Gary

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Absolutely not true.

The price of food (as a percentage of an average person's daily 'labor budget') has gone down a HUGE amount in the past 200 years.

Before I go on, I should mention that 'labor budget' refers to the amount of time a person needs to work in order to either 1> produce the item in question or 2> earn enough money to buy it.

In the stone age, the labor budget for food sufficient (that is, bare minimum) for one adult was on the order of 4 hours.

In the agricultural age, that is, roman to late medieval time, it was on the order of 2 hours, because of the abandonment of hunting and gathering and the use of granaries of various sorts to store food over the winter.

In the renaissance, it went down to about one hour, mostly due to shifting cultivation.

With the advent of such things as fertilizer, mechanization, and factory farms, the labor cost has gone down to around ten minutes.

On what basis do you assert that personal economies have not changed in the last 200-300 years?

Okay, let's accept the "absolute" as a fact. We now turn to a fantasy world where there are active deities and their priests at work to make sure that crops don't fail, ripes, and so forth. The agriculturial base for a developed fantasy world state would be quite far beyond even a typical 18th century one.

Fertilization of crops, something that can certainly be assumed in a fantasy world, was known in the East, and even many primitive agriculturalists used irrigation and fertilization techniques.

So, that considered, is there really anything too far-fetched in assuming that food costs in a fantasy world, one where inspections, packaging and middle-men are not adding to the cost of goods, is similar to our own? I think not.

Of course, the overall economic setting I propose is one that is far more affluent that the "miserable peasant" one often used. with a greater amount of wealth assumed in the society, there is greater opportunity for adventure possibilities, I submit.

The lowest socio-economic class is still present and struggling, beneath it the underclass and the criminal underclass, above it the middle tier of the lower class just about able to make ends meet. the top of this strata having some amenities.

Cheerio,
Gary

 

[Vaxalon]

The concept that magic will make agriculture more productive in the absence of technology is specious. The increases in productivity from things like "bless crops" spells will be counterbalanced by increased threats from the various monsters that inhabit fantasy worlds.

Generally speaking, packaging, inspection, and distribution (your "inspections, packaging and middle-men") don't REDUCE the value of the food, they ADD to it.

Inspectors mean that spoiled food causes less loss of labor due to illness and death caused by food poisoning. Safer food is more valuable food.

Likewise, packaging helps keep food from spoiling due to spillage. Unspilled food is more valuable than spilled food.

Distribution increases the value of food because it moves it from places where the food is cheap (where it's produced) to places where it's more expensive (where it's consumed).

Now waste, fraud, and abuse WILL decrease the value of the food, but I submit that those are present in EVERY culture.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

The concept that magic will make agriculture more productive in the absence of technology is specious. The increases in productivity from things like "bless crops" spells will be counterbalanced by increased threats from the various monsters that inhabit fantasy worlds.

Au contrare, dear fellow. What organized human society in history allowed other species to interfere with their domains? None, of course. "Monsters" might indeed inhabit the wilds and wildernesses, but where states of advanced sort exist, those sorts of creaturers will be exterminated.

By all means also look beyond the basically adventure-related clerical spells in D&D for the various sorts of powers the large and active ecclesiastical component of a state would use.

Generally speaking, packaging, inspection, and distribution (your "inspections, packaging and middle-men") don't REDUCE the value of the food, they ADD to it.

Inspectors mean that spoiled food causes less loss of labor due to illness and death caused by food poisoning. Safer food is more valuable food.

Likewise, packaging helps keep food from spoiling due to spillage. Unspilled food is more valuable than spilled food.

Distribution increases the value of food because it moves it from places where the food is cheap (where it's produced) to places where it's more expensive (where it's consumed).

Value? Heh, and that has nothing to do with what I said. Price is the thing in question, and those factors certainly add to food costs--as do insurance,advertising, and lost os other overhead factors vendors have to cover.

Happily, you noted that distribution does increase the cost of foodstuffs, just as I poinnted out.

Cheerio,
Gary

 

[Vaxalon]

Au contrare, dear fellow. What organized human society in history allowed other species to interfere with their domains? None, of course. "Monsters" might indeed inhabit the wilds and wildernesses, but where states of advanced sort exist, those sorts of creaturers will be exterminated.

What human culture has NOT been at the top of the food chain? None. The predation upon humanity that I posit has had no equal in human history. Who says that humanity has the POWER to exterminate ALL of the monsters from civilized lands?

NOT TO MENTION the fact that some of the monsters are human themselves.

A world where civilized areas are as safe as you portray is LESS suitable to adventure, not MORE.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

...NOT ... NOT TO MENTION ... LESS suitable to adventure, not MORE.

Dude, give it a rest. You are evidentally seeking to be disputatious, not wishing to engage in a rational discussion in regards this matter. That's okay, but I don't want to spend time answering those subjective assertions you are making that don't really have any bearing on the question at hand. Sorry.

Cheers,
Gary

 

[Vaxalon]

These objections are entirely germaine.

You cannot equate modern, real world prices with fantasy world prices because the two systems have entirely different monetary, fiscal, social, and technological influences.

Unless you are willing to put forward a fantasy world that contains world banking, instantaneous money transfer, worldwide transport, and most of the rest of the influences that govern modern prices, the model is inherently flawed.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Now, now, settle down

Now, Vaxalon, show Gary the respect he deserves as your elder. And Gary, Vaxalon is making some very insightful and valid comments that deserve your attention, and possibly further evaluation. But I can see that tensions are starting to rise and there's really no need for that. Let's all relax, and continue our debate in a calm and rational fashion.

 

[Piratecat]

Well said. Discussion, not argument, folks. This could be really interesting, and I'm curious to see the responses.

Thanks!