Crit with Harm?

[Infiniti2000]

.....could a sneak attack Harm bring an opponent below 1 hp?

Ignoring the save/no save issue, the answer is no because the sneak attack increases the damage, it doesn't create a separate attack. For the same reason you "stack" the sneak attack damage with normal weapon damage to overcome DR, it adds to harm. Thus, it still wouldn't overcome the 1hp limitation.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Personally, I don't think a Harm spell should be able to crit, mainly because it has a maximum amount of damage listed. If a crit would bring the damage over 150, that's more than the maximum of 150, is it not?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Personally, I don't think a Harm spell should be able to crit, mainly because it has a maximum amount of damage listed. If a crit would bring the damage over 150, that's more than the maximum of 150, is it not?

Every spell has a maximum listed. Are you saying you can't crit with any spell? Can you even, say, empower a fireball beyond 10d6? You're argument doesn't hold water when you are discussing a game mechanic (crit, empower) whose very purpose is to allow you to go beyond a previously defined limit.

 

[3d6]

I think that because harm's damage is expressed as a fixed number, you can't really score a meaningful critical hit with it.

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Because no damage is rolled with harm, you can't roll the damage twice and total the results, and therefore cannot determine how much damage would be dealt on a critical hit.

 

[glass]

Because no damage is rolled with harm, you can't roll the damage twice and total the results, and therefore cannot determine how much damage would be dealt on a critical hit.

The only roll required for a crit is an attack roll, and there is an attack roll with harm. The other requirement is for damage, which harm also does.

There is no requirement for the damage to be randomly rolled, just that there be some. Do you have undead not doing double level drain on a crit, because energy drain is not rolled, despite the fact they explicitly do per the RAW?


glass.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think the limit to 1hp still applies if you score a critical with Harm, so the benefit could be minimal.

Something more complicated came to my mind... I hope I'm not hijacking.

Can you cast Harm against an opponent with a Tower Shield? The Tower Shield provides total cover against attacks, but no protection against targetted spells (does Harm count as "targetted"?) in which case you're targetting the shield. What happens if the touch attack is a critical, if you're hitting the shield?

What about a touch spell hitting someone using an armor of fortification. Can the armor negate (with % chance) the critical, or does the touch attack's "disregard armor" includes the armor fortification ability?

 

[Orm]

Can you cast Harm against an opponent with a Tower Shield? The Tower Shield provides total cover against attacks, but no protection against targetted spells (does Harm count as "targetted"?) in which case you're targetting the shield. What happens if the touch attack is a critical, if you're hitting the shield?

Target or Targets

Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target.

I think it´s possible to target the shield to affect the wearer.

Orm

 

[Li Shenron]

I think it´s possible to target the shield to affect the wearer.

I think so too, but I wasn't completely sure whether a touch spell is technically a targeted spell...

It's hard to explain in game terms (without a convolution) how the cleric would cast the Harm (or whatever touch spell) at the shield and possibly get a critical...

 

[KarinsDad]

Ignoring the save/no save issue, the answer is no because the sneak attack increases the damage, it doesn't create a separate attack. For the same reason you "stack" the sneak attack damage with normal weapon damage to overcome DR, it adds to harm. Thus, it still wouldn't overcome the 1hp limitation.

Agreed. Even if the sneak attack damage all by itself was enough to bring the creature below 1 HP of damage, it still would not do so since it is magical "Harm damage" being inflicted, not normal weapon damage.

This is the same as if you added Sneak Attack damage to a Scorching Ray spell. The sneak attack damage in that case would be fire damage, not normal weapon damage.

Sneak attack damage is extra damage of the type inflicted.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think so too, but I wasn't completely sure whether a touch spell is technically a targeted spell...

It's hard to explain in game terms (without a convolution) how the cleric would cast the Harm (or whatever touch spell) at the shield and possibly get a critical...

Touch spells ignore armor and shields, including tower shields.