Crit with Harm?

[Li Shenron]

Touch spells ignore armor and shields, including tower shields.

Yes but that was clear to me only in the case of negating the AC bonus.

In case of Tower Shield used as total cover (not as AC bonus), it wasn't clear to me. The SRD says that the caster is basically touching the shield with the spell, in which case it feels strange to me that he can score a critical.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Something more complicated came to my mind... I hope I'm not hijacking.

Can you cast Harm against an opponent with a Tower Shield? The Tower Shield provides total cover against attacks, but no protection against targetted spells (does Harm count as "targetted"?) in which case you're targetting the shield. What happens if the touch attack is a critical, if you're hitting the shield?

Although harm is a touch attack spell and you cannot attack someone with total cover (relative to you), it's also arguably a targeted spell (it has a Target entry) and giving the exception for tower shields, you can be targeted with a harm by targeting the shield. Unfortunately, there are no clear rules on how to 'attack' the shield. IMO, you have two choices: (1) the targets normal touch AC (though this begs the question on how Dex applies when he can't see you), or (2) use the rules on hitting an item held by an opponent. I choose #1 and treat the target as "blind" (i.e. no Dex bonus to AC and +2 to hit).

What about a touch spell hitting someone using an armor of fortification. Can the armor negate (with % chance) the critical, or does the touch attack's "disregard armor" includes the armor fortification ability?

The armor fortification can indeed negate the critical. There's no limit to non-touch attacks or anything in the fortification description.

Touch spells ignore armor and shields, including tower shields.

I think the assumption was if you use the tower shield as total cover. Your statement I don't believe is technically correct in that touch spells ignore the AC bonus from armor and shields. They do not actually ignore armor and shields, which means that touch spells do not intrinsically ignore tower shields when used as cover. It's the exception listed in the tower shield description which allows for it. It ends up being the same in this case, but giving your sentence above would lead one to believe that (for example) fortification or any other armor/shield enhancement doesn't apply.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think the assumption was if you use the tower shield as total cover. Your statement I don't believe is technically correct in that touch spells ignore the AC bonus from armor and shields. They do not actually ignore armor and shields, which means that touch spells do not intrinsically ignore tower shields when used as cover. It's the exception listed in the tower shield description which allows for it. It ends up being the same in this case, but giving your sentence above would lead one to believe that (for example) fortification or any other armor/shield enhancement doesn't apply.

Touch is the Range property of the spell.

Creature is the Target or Targets property of the spell.

It does not matter that a character has full cover from a Tower Shield, the creature is still the target of the spell and the Tower Shield does not provide cover against targeted spells.

Hence, he can be touched by the spell.

Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target.

Shield, Tower: This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I think that because harm's damage is expressed as a fixed number, you can't really score a meaningful critical hit with it.Because no damage is rolled with harm, you can't roll the damage twice and total the results, and therefore cannot determine how much damage would be dealt on a critical hit.

What about enhancement bonuses on weapons, or Strength bonuses to damage? They aren't "randomly rolled". Do you not double them?

Do you not double a Maximized Scorching Ray if you crit with it?

Do you not double the damage on an Inflict Minor Wounds spell if you crit with it? Though why you'd be attacking with an Inflict Minor Wounds spell is beyond me

 

[Nail]

Ignoring the save/no save issue, the answer is no because the sneak attack increases the damage, it doesn't create a separate attack.

Agreed.

The "same damage" rule KD quoted is relevant here, too.

Thanks.

 

[RigaMortus2]

What happens if you are at -5hp and someone casts Harm on you? Are you brought back up to 1hp?

 

[Nail]

What happens if you are at -5hp and someone casts Harm on you? Are you brought back up to 1hp?

No. In fact, the spell does noting at all.

The appropriate text is "....but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1." The spell can not reduce the target's hit points at all, as his hp are already less than 1.

 

[Nail]

Caveat to the above: ....If you rule that the "less than 1" part applies regardless of saving throw, then the spell can do no harm to someone at -5 hp. That's how our group would do it.

A strict reading of the text would not support our group's interpretation.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Touch is the Range property of the spell.

Creature is the Target or Targets property of the spell.

It does not matter that a character has full cover from a Tower Shield, the creature is still the target of the spell and the Tower Shield does not provide cover against targeted spells.

Hence, he can be touched by the spell.

That's exactly what I said. But, the shield is not 'ignored'. The shield bonus to AC and cover is ignored, but as illustrated by the fortification question, they are not the same thing.

 

[Demoquin]

I was thinking ... If someone is hiding behind their tower shield and the enemy cleric cant see him, could the shield wielder just let the shield stand up on its own (slam it in the dirt?) and pretend to be using it? So if the caster touches the shield for harm ... it does nothing.