Critical hits with Creatures - More Damage Dice?

[Zinovia]

I was considering adding dice to monster attacks when they score a critical, in the same way that PC's get them due to their magic weapons and implements. It seems as you level up, that these extra crit dice become more and more significant, so that PC crits really hurt. Monsters have no corresponding mechanic in the majority of cases; they just max damage. So is this a design feature to protect the PC's, given that they will be subject to many critical hits over the course of their adventuring careers? Is it a valid target for increasing monster damage? Has anyone else done this in their games, and how has it worked for you?

I've experimented with it just a little when there have been humanoids using high crit weapons such as the battle axe. Why would that be high crit in the hands of a player but not in the hands of a human berserker? Sure, they use different rules, but I still like the flavor of someone scoring a crit on you with a battle axe doing another d12 damage. Currently it's not all that scary when a monster gets a crit on you.

I'd keep the damage values in line with what the PC's tend to get, but perhaps a tier or so lower. i.e. If the group has all +2 weapons, and do 2 extra dice on a crit, maybe the monsters can do an extra 1d6, with the higher level baddies they fight doing 2d6 extra crit dice.

Thoughts?

 

[hvg3akaek]

I have been doing a similar thing, but simply using d6's. I also step it 5 levels lower than the PCs, so a level 5 critter does nothing special on a crit, but level 6-10 do +d6, 11-15 deal +2d6, and so on.

I don't really scale it for elites / solos, as they have more damage anyway, and more ways to get attacks.

For minions, if they need it, I might add half their damage again - so a minion who criticals with 6 damage deals 9 instead (and this is standard across all of them - the higher the level, the more the static damage should be). It is not a significant increase, but makes them a little more interesting.

So far I feel it works nicely, but if you also use changes such as the "drop HP by 20%, increase damage by 20%", some criticals could be quite nasty. Then again, shouldn't they be?

 

[eriktheguy]

Monster HP also scales much faster than player HP, but I play with reduced monster HP and increased damage. d6 per tier would probably be enough for crit damage for me. Some monsters have listed increased damage for crits.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I use almost the same mechanic as hvg3akaek, the difference is that minions get D4 dice on a crit.

For those monsters that have a special crit effect listed, I don't use this HR addition.

I have also toyed with a rule regarding long term wounds, which the player can choose to take and negate a critical hit.. but I keep forgetting to playtest it

 

[Zinovia]

I have been doing a similar thing, but simply using d6's. I also step it 5 levels lower than the PCs, so a level 5 critter does nothing special on a crit, but level 6-10 do +d6, 11-15 deal +2d6, and so on.

I don't really scale it for elites / solos, as they have more damage anyway, and more ways to get attacks.

That sounds exactly like what I was thinking, and it makes sense to not scale it for the elites and solos. You're right that they already have some advantages in damage. I wouldn't add any dice onto creatures that already have extra crit damage specified in their listing.

So far I feel it works nicely, but if you also use changes such as the "drop HP by 20%, increase damage by 20%", some criticals could be quite nasty. Then again, shouldn't they be?

Precisely! I am reducing monster hp and upping damage by about 1/2 level. Crits will hurt, but I'm okay with that. I'm glad to hear it's working well for your group, thanks for the feedback.

 

[Zinovia]

I use almost the same mechanic as hvg3akaek, the difference is that minions get D4 dice on a crit.

That sounds reasonable.

I have also toyed with a rule regarding long term wounds, which the player can choose to take and negate a critical hit.. but I keep forgetting to playtest it

So they would take no damage from the crit, and instead take a long term wound? I'd be interested in hearing more about this when you've had a chance to try it out. Adventurers should have a scar or two after they've been putting their lives on the line for awhile!

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

The long term wounds came from a thread over here

Or just read... [sblock]
Wounds


SUFFER WOUND: Not an action
• At Any Time: You don't need to be conscious to suffer a wound. You can suffer a wound in response to an enemy's attack, or when you are about to die, or during your turn. You can't suffer a wound once you are dead, or if you are at full hit points, or if you are out of healing surges.
• Spend a Healing Surge: You spend a healing surge and regain hit points equal to your surge value, as normal. However, you can choose to heal fewer hit points; the amount of hit points you heal factors into the wound recovery DC (below). You can't suffer a wound if you are out of healing surges.
• Dazed: You become dazed (save ends).
• Gain a Wound: You gain a wound, but don't suffer any of its effects until after you have taken a short rest. (Adrenaline keeps you going after you recover from being dazed.) Record the wound, and number of hit points that you healed as a result of gaining the wound.
• Reduce Critical Hits: When hit by a Critical Hit, you can suffer a wound to negate the critical effect. You do not spend a healing surge or regain hit points, however the attack is not considered a critical hit. The wound recovery DC is based on 10 plus the level of the attacker.

Wound Effects
You suffer a -1 penalty per wound to all attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, saving throws, speed, and your maximum number of healing surges. This is cumulative; if you have 3 wounds, you suffer a -3 penalty.

Wound Recovery
After an extended rest, you may make an Endurance check to recover from one of your wounds. You don't need to attempt a recovery check if you don't want to. Another character can use the Heal skill to tend your wound; use their Heal check result or your Endurance result, whichever is higher.

The DC of the wound check is based on the number of hit points you healed when acquiring the wound.

Wound Recovery DC = 10 + half the number of hit points you healed when you suffered the wound
• Success: If you succeed on three wound recovery checks for the same wound, that wound is cured; you lose the wound and no longer suffer its penalties. These success don't need to be consecutive, but each one comes from a separate recovery check (so you need at least three extended rests to cure a wound, assuming you succeed on each recovery check).
• Failure: If you fail on three wound recovery checks, that wound is permanent, and you can no longer make recovery checks to attempt to cure it (although it can still be cured by the Cure Wound ritual). However, you no longer suffer any penalties from this wound, except for the penalty to your maximum number of healing surges.
• Multiple Wounds: You can only make one recovery check for one wound per extended rest. Track the successes and failures for each wound separately.


Example:
Hrothbert the 6th-level dwarf is bleeding out, felled by an elite orc shaman and his followers. The fight is going badly for his party, but they're out of healing words. Hrothbert decides to wrench himself off the ground and get back into the game! He heals his surge value (15 hit points) and stands up, dazed. His presence makes enough of a difference in the fight for the party to be victorious!

After a short rest, Hrothbert suffers the effects of his wounds: -1 to pretty much everything. The group trudges back to town so Hrothbert can start taking extended rests at the inn. After each one, he makes an Endurance check, DC 17 (1/2 of 15 = 7, +10 = 17). Over four days of resting, he fails the first check, succeeds on the next two, and then fails the fourth. On the fifth day, Hrothbert must decide whether to even attempt the recovery check. If he succeeds, he's cured of that wound forever. If he fails, he's stuck with reduced healing surges until he can get magical aid. Maybe he should forgo his recovery check tonight, and seek out someone with a decent Heal modifier to help on his final check?
[/sblock]
.. but please direct comments on this tangent to the above linked thread.

 

[Amaroq]

Here's the downside to increased monster crits. The last two long-running characters I've played have been AC extremists, a 3.5e paladin, and a 4e fighter. They both got to the point where we'd frequently engage monsters that needed an 18 or better to hit me, and with powers that boost AC, etc, I've memorably fought an opponent that hit only a 20 - but as that was his target to hit my AC, he basically missed me or critted me.

The math on that may be right, but it doesn't feel right to the targeted player: you actually do want to be able to take a number of normal wounds, and have crits remain "rare" ... I mean, yes they're only happening one time in 20, but if one in three hits is a crit, it feels like one is getting picked on.

Note also that increasing monster criticals is going to essentially "punish" the defender for getting out there and taking more attacks than his compatriots; a well-played defender gets attacked at least twice as much, possibly three or four times as much as his "back line" .. so increased monster-crits may be something which feels "right" to the back-line players, but turns out sucky for the defenders.

The solution I came up with was a "confirm a crit" mechanic: roll another d20, and if the result is:

- Critical: DM adjudicates, tells a story

- A hit: As current rules: maximum damage plus die rolls and critical effects

- A miss: Normal damage plus die rolls and critical effects

This served to minimize the "hey the defender always gets critted" feeling very well ... but it also reduced monster damage output quite a bit.

I compensated by doing exactly what you're describing: adding critical dice and/or effects for certain "signature" monsters. I didn't want minions or rank-and-file bad guys to really tag the party, but I started adding lines to most of my main monsters' powers specifying crit dice and/or effects.

A run-of-the-mill skirmisher might not be adjusted.

That brute with the giant axe might have his power read:

Giant Axe - Basic Melee Attack - Standard Action - At-Will
+14 vs AC; 1d10 + 7 damage.
Critical: +1d12 damage; target is pushed 1 square and knocked prone.

We've been playing this for a couple years, and most of my players love it. They still get to do most of their cool critical stuff, and maximizing the weapon dice tends to be less important than their critical effects. Monsters don't crit the defenders too often. And when that big brute with the axe crits, the players remember it and treat him with a healthy respect!

(One of my players dislikes this mechanic: he says that when he rolls a 20, and then follows up with a "miss", he's more disappointed with the miss than excited at the crit. Basically, its a psychological thing: he wants to feel that excitement when he rolls a 20, not on the follow-up. We've talked through the math, and his conclusion was "Yeah, I agree, its better for the PC's this way, but its like eating my vegetables: I know its good for me, but I still don't like it.")

 

[Garthanos]

.. but please direct comments on this tangent to the above linked thread.

you should have linked deeper in to the thread it gets much nicer.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/240891-wound-system-2.html#post4649572

 

[eriktheguy]

Actually, I think I'm going to use a static modifier
I hate rolling dice
I don't even roll damage dice for monsters (so 1d4 for minions on a crit is OUT OF THE QUESTION)

You were suggesting giving them the same # of crit dice as the players
Then use the level of the monster as a magic weapon level, and use the appropriate number of dice
+1d6 at level 1-5, +2d6 for 6-11...
As a static bonus that's about
+3 at 1-5, +6 at 6-11

For my +1d6 per tier rule thats
+3 at heroic, +6 at paragon, +9 at epic


I will let minions take advantage of the full bonus in my games