Critical Role Critical Role's Sold Out Wembley Arena Show

Critical Role played Wembley Arena this week to over 12,000 people, and folks on social media shared images!

Critical Role played London's Wembley Arena this week to over 12,000 people, and folks on social media shared images!

Built in 1934 next to the famous Wembley Stadium, Wembley Arena is the UK's 9th largest indoor arena and has hosted acts such as Queen, ABBA, Beyoncé, and Madonna.

ross1.jpg

From Rachel Romero who posted on Twitter
ross2.jpg

From Rachel Romero who posted on Twitter

c1.jpeg

From Castfireballminiatures




 

log in or register to remove this ad

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Regardless, we've seen knock offs for a long time and very few of them go anywhere. Dimension 20 and NADDPOD are competitors - but realistically, anyone new getting into this is likely to gravitate to Critical Role eventually and there is currently enough content out there from Critical Role to make listening a full time job for over 8 months. Not everyone will - some will find the idea of a show that will continue on and on with no risk of unexpected cancellation daunting ... for ... reasons?
There's two sides to this. The GRRM problem, i.e. I don't want to get invested in this because it might be left unfinished; and the "holy crap that's too much" problem, i.e. as you say, catching up would require a big time investment. Something like 1316 hours and 32 minutes according to critrolestats. Though the cartoon does condense things down quite a lot. Each dozen or so live play episodes fit into 2-3 episodes of 30 minutes each.
But even when they've packed shows with known names, it has not worked for a few reasons:

1.) By the time the cast started filming they were already family. They had a strong bond. You can't make the type of chemistry quickly. Dimension 20 created it by pulling together people that already had a similar bond. But if you shove 5 actors that worked togethe once in a while together ... it'd take a while to form.

2.) Despite being actors, they don't seem to be jerks. None of them are scene stealers. None of them are divas. They work to create moments for the other PCs. Nobody wants to be the breakout star of the show. They often forget they are filming a show and just role play.

3.) There are very few DMs that are as good as Mercer. I give him a 9 on his rules knowledge, but 10s across the board on everything else ... and the fans are merciless on DMs. Few can endure what he has over the years and stay as positive as he has been.
Spot on. You can't manufacture the level of affection and closeness the cast has. As you say, it really shines through.
The only way I see something else coming around and getting this level of following again would be if Critical Role kills the Golden Goose. This transition between editions of D&D could be a turning point. If Critical Role does jump ship and run Campaign 4 in a new CR owned Rules Set, which there are signs they might, it would cost them viewers. That might be a small number, or much larger over time than they expect.
Most fans of CR are fans of the cast, not the game. They become fans of the game because of the show. They're far, far more invested in the people at the table and their interactions than the game mechanics. Yes, the one-shots and mini campaigns have lower viewer numbers, but we haven't seen the full cast do anything that's not D&D (afair). The closest we got was Ashley's not-Alien one-shot and it has numbers that every other live play show would kill for.
I think a lot of the fans listening to the show like to ask, "what would I do if I were in that game at that moment". It isn't as easy to do that in a foreign rule set.
It wouldn't be foreign because the vast majority of fans would buy up the new game really quickly. They'd read it, learn it, and many would play it. It would be new, yes. But it wouldn't be some mysterious, ineffable alien thing. It wouldn't be "foreign" in any real sense.
And their rule sets focus more on story than mechanics, and I think they underestimate the need for structure in RPGs. You don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole of structure, but DMs and players alike want to know what to do to resolve a situation. And, they want it to make sense. They don't want a broad rule with a random factor that creates great story moments at the expense of feeling structured.
I think you're drastically overestimating the differences between 5E and what we know of the still in playtest Daggerheart game. Everything we've seen suggests rules only slightly lighter than 5E with some more narrative, player-generated elements. Their game isn't going to be "just make it up, LOL."
 

log in or register to remove this ad

jgsugden

Legend
There's two sides to this. The GRRM problem, i.e. I don't want to get invested in this because it might be left unfinished; and the "holy crap that's too much" problem, i.e. as you say, catching up would require a big time investment. Something like 1316 hours and 32 minutes according to critrolestats. Though the cartoon does condense things down quite a lot. Each dozen or so live play episodes fit into 2-3 episodes of 30 minutes each.
This seems to be a problem like being young too long or having too much money.
Most fans of CR are fans of the cast, not the game. They become fans of the game because of the show. They're far, far more invested in the people at the table and their interactions than the game mechanics. Yes, the one-shots and mini campaigns have lower viewer numbers, but we haven't seen the full cast do anything that's not D&D (afair). The closest we got was Ashley's not-Alien one-shot and it has numbers that every other live play show would kill for.
We have a few examples of them playing non-D&D games ... and there is always a dip in the numbers. Candela Obscura is pulling about a third of what Campaign 3 is pulling - and it has enough of the main cast (with support from tested and known supporting players) to be a fair measuirng stick.
It wouldn't be foreign because the vast majority of fans would buy up the new game really quickly. They'd read it, learn it, and many would play it. It would be new, yes. But it wouldn't be some mysterious, ineffable alien thing. It wouldn't be "foreign" in any real sense.
When we think foreign, we think alien or novel, but the unease of the foreign is not just because something is new. It is because we do not know or trust it. With a new game's rule set, the player base would not feel as attached or trusting. Even the people that knew nothing of D&D before Critical Role now know D&D - and a different system will not be something they understand. That won't be as comfortable. This is one of the driving reasons why they have not been able to generate similar numbers with Candela Obscura, the other rule one shots, or other experiments.
I think you're drastically overestimating the differences between 5E and what we know of the still in playtest Daggerheart game. Everything we've seen suggests rules only slightly lighter than 5E with some more narrative, player-generated elements. Their game isn't going to be "just make it up, LOL."
No, but it will be a different set of rules - and any tweak to a rule set as intertwined as 5E is can have drastic implications. We call 5E 5E - but it is built upon over 20 different rule iterations controlled by WotC/TSR over the years including all of the AD&D editions and half editions, each of the BECMI, DDM, Gamma World, and countless others where they had evolutionary knowledge gained about what worked, and what was a collasal misstep for D&D, even in 4E is a good game in itself for other settings.

Yes, Daggerheart and all the others get to learn from D&D's history as well ... but designing a game as intertwined as D&D is really hard. You may be getting a head start, but nobody has the DNDBeyond Data, the surveys, the playtesting data, etc... that WotC does. We've all seen people take shots at making rules for D&D as their homebrew - and we've seen the huge flaws that those rules create. We see people yell and scream about how broken D&D is in 5E because most people can't understand how well balanced the game is - or see the math behind why. And few that see the math right can see why sometimes you need to twist the math to preserve storytelling options.

Take a look into the history of the 5E stealth system and find the quotes from the designers on why they designed it as they did. Most people that heard it balked at WotC for either being lazy, dumb or cowards in designing such a loose construct. However, if you really think about their reasons for putting so much in the hands of the DM ... it was a great approach to be efficient in rule complexity/length, open ended in storytelling and simplified an insanely complex situation down to something people could use quickly.

If you're into board game design, look into the advice that designers like Rob Daviau ('Father' of Legacy games) have on building games and you'll see why their 40th game is so much better than their 5th ... It is very hard to build great mechanics for a game because you have have to be passionate about what you're doing, but at the same time capable of gutting your favorite ideas because they're great ... but just not right for that game. Like I said - 4E has fans and I think it is an amazing system ... but was entirely wrong for a continuation of D&D. The 4E designers had the passion, but couldn't see the need to (or wouldn't agree to) throw out their ideas because they abandoned legacy that was essential to the appeal of the game.

I have a lot of faith in Matt Mercer and the people that will be behind Daggerheart. I thoroughly believe that at the end of the day, however, when we have 5 new 'editions' splitting the community, the highest quality game will be D&D. They just have the inside info and resources nobody else does.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
This seems to be a problem like being young too long or having too much money.
From the creator's POV sure. That's fantastic. But from the new fan's perspective? Not likely. It's also a common thing for people trying to get into comics, manga, anime, etc. There's just so much that it's overwhelming.
We have a few examples of them playing non-D&D games ... and there is always a dip in the numbers.
Yes there is.
Candela Obscura is pulling about a third of what Campaign 3 is pulling - and it has enough of the main cast (with support from tested and known supporting players) to be a fair measuirng stick.
Not in the slightest. Vassal and Veil had three of the main cast. Needle and Thread has two of the main cast. Again, most fans of CR are fans of the cast as a whole, not the game system. When they do a full-cast game of fantasy with a non-D&D system, then we'll have a fair measuring stick.
When we think foreign, we think alien or novel, but the unease of the foreign is not just because something is new. It is because we do not know or trust it. With a new game's rule set, the player base would not feel as attached or trusting.
You and I have incredibly different views on how people pick up and play games.
Even the people that knew nothing of D&D before Critical Role now know D&D - and a different system will not be something they understand.
You realize that they can and will learn the new system just as they had to learn D&D, right? This isn't some insurmountable challenge of Herculean proportions. It's a game system that's (from what we know so far) lighter than 5E. So it will be even easier to learn than 5E was for all those new fans CR brought in.
That won't be as comfortable. This is one of the driving reasons why they have not been able to generate similar numbers with Candela Obscura, the other rule one shots, or other experiments.
That and the full cast not being in them.
No, but it will be a different set of rules - and any tweak to a rule set as intertwined as 5E is can have drastic implications. We call 5E 5E - but it is built upon over 20 different rule iterations controlled by WotC/TSR over the years including all of the AD&D editions and half editions, each of the BECMI, DDM, Gamma World, and countless others where they had evolutionary knowledge gained about what worked, and what was a collasal misstep for D&D, even in 4E is a good game in itself for other settings.
What you see as a solid foundation I see as decades of layered on cruft that is better left behind.
We've all seen people take shots at making rules for D&D as their homebrew - and we've seen the huge flaws that those rules create.
All while ignoring all the problems 50 years of appeals to tradition have caused.
We see people yell and scream about how broken D&D is in 5E because most people can't understand how well balanced the game is - or see the math behind why.
Wow. Uhm...5E isn't balanced in the slightest. I've dug into the math. I've used that math to create my own monster design system. I've used it in many games and playtested it thoroughly and it works a lot better than the RAW version. I've read up on other people who've done the same. Ask them how "balanced" 5E is. Hint: it's so not balanced it's hilarious.

But it's already clear we're not going to agree on most of this, so this is where I bow out.
 


Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
I would give a kidney for them to run a season long campaign of like Shadowrun or Cyberpunk.
Have they ever done anything long term other than Pathfinder, 4E and 5E? (I believe those are all the systems they've run main campaigns in.)

I know they've done lots of one-shots, sometimes with sequels, in other stuff.

If they were doing something cyberpunk, I'd bet it'd be their own game, a 5E reskin or Cy_Borg, though. They don't seem to be big into legacy systems.
 

DarkCrisis

Reeks of Jedi
Have they ever done anything long term other than Pathfinder, 4E and 5E? (I believe those are all the systems they've run main campaigns in.)

I know they've done lots of one-shots, sometimes with sequels, in other stuff.

If they were doing something cyberpunk, I'd bet it'd be their own game, a 5E reskin or Cy_Borg, though. They don't seem to be big into legacy systems.
Yeah they'd reskin 5E like the often do. Zzzz
 



overgeeked

B/X Known World
Have they ever done anything long term other than Pathfinder, 4E and 5E? (I believe those are all the systems they've run main campaigns in.)
The original one-shot game Matt ran for Liam's birthday used a toned down version of 4E. Once they decided to keep playing together they switched to Pathfinder. Just prior to the stream they switched to 5E.
I know they've done lots of one-shots, sometimes with sequels, in other stuff.
They did Savage Worlds for a four shot game. They're now doing an on-going series of three-shots with Candela Obscura. Most everything else is 5E. Their one shots vary a bunch. Ashley's not-Aliens game was something they cobbled together. The Legend of Zelda game was PbtA. They've run Honey Heist 2-3 times.
If they were doing something cyberpunk, I'd bet it'd be their own game, a 5E reskin or Cy_Borg, though. They don't seem to be big into legacy systems.
Candela Obscura is one iteration of a generic system they're designing called Illuminated Worlds. Chances are they'll use that going forward for one-shots regardless of the genre. Unless the paying client wants something specific.
 

Most fans of CR are fans of the cast, not the game. They become fans of the game because of the show. They're far, far more invested in the people at the table and their interactions than the game mechanics.
This is me. I can't count the number of times rules have been forgotten, often far far more than my own players. But I keep coming back because they are a bunch of very charismatic people who genuinely make me root for them as people. I want them to succeed, especially Mercer who struggles with major anxiety every single time he steps in front of that camera.

You can see real frienship between them, and they are making a good faith attempt to be decent human beings. Parasocial relationship succeeded!
 
Last edited:

Related Articles

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top