D&D 5E Critiquing the System

[Oofta]

Why should the assumption be that Wizards have a monopoly on researching and knowing things magical? There's an equally compelling argument that a Wizard might only be good at his narrow specialization, much like academics in the real world. Its not the given that people seem to assume it is. That peerless idea is much more an opinion and one way of viewing the class than it is an obvious given.

Kind of like the difference between science and engineering.

 

[Argyle King]

Just because the game theorizes something could happen... like the Rogue with Arcana Expertise at level 20 being numerically "better" than a Wizard...

...doesn't mean it ever actually has, does, or will happen.

Talk to me when you actually have a game where there's a Level 20 Rogue PC with a 10 INT and Arcana Expertise standing next to a 20 INT Wizard PC with Arcana, and the Wizard player feels like they are getting overshadowed by the Rogue player. Until that actually happens, it'll just be white room conjecture about the most extremely unlikely scenario that no one should bother wasting their time trying to re-do the skill system just to "fix" it.

If the game only "breaks" when you have to go out of your way to build the unlikeliest of situations that never actually happens... it means the system is actually pretty good. And if by some of the wildest chances this Level 20 Rogue with a 10 INT and Expertise in Arcana DOES appear in your game... my guess is that the story of their time in the campaign will exemplify exactly why they are who they are.

For whatever it's worth, I've anecdotally played in a game where a player's goal was to build a rogue/bard who essentially couldn't fail at skill checks. Offhand, I don't remember the build, but I do remember it being somewhat annoying because it essentially made rolling for anything pointless.

 

[tetrasodium]

For whatever it's worth, I've anecdotally played in a game where a player's goal was to build a rogue/bard who essentially couldn't fail at skill checks. Offhand, I don't remember the build, but I do remember it being somewhat annoying because it essentially made rolling for anything pointless.

One of my games has a straight wizard who has arcana expertise. Something that happened in our last session was that he was talked to about a highly specialized & advanced form of manipulating ambient planar energies via eldritch machine by what was the lead engineer & inventor of the tech. I asked him to give me an arcana check figuring I'd use it as a basis of how well he understood it. This was his exact response at the table "Well I rolled a 2... +8 for expertise+5 int that's 15... wait no I have an inspiration, I'm going to use that for...13+5+8 so 26". That says nothing about the AT/Sorc rogue with expertise in history & stealth. It completely destroys bounded accuracy

 

[Oofta]

One of my games has a straight wizard who has arcana expertise. Something that happened in our last session was that he was talked to about a highly specialized & advanced form of manipulating ambient planar energies via eldritch machine by what was the lead engineer & inventor of the tech. I asked him to give me an arcana check figuring I'd use it as a basis of how well he understood it. This was his exact response at the table "Well I rolled a 2... +8 for expertise+5 int that's 15... wait no I have an inspiration, I'm going to use that for...13+5+8 so 26". That says nothing about the AT/Sorc rogue with expertise in history & stealth. It completely destroys bounded accuracy

Personally I don't allow inspiration (or other ways of getting advantage) after the roll. But in this case the guy rolled well. I don't see how that "destroys bounded accuracy" when he could have gotten the same number with a lucky roll.

That and while ability checks aid in solving problems in my game, they are frequently not the solution. If I wanted something like to be a complex skill/RP challenge it wouldn't be resolved by a single roll.

 

[tetrasodium]

Personally I don't allow inspiration (or other ways of getting advantage) after the roll. But in this case the guy rolled well. I don't see how that "destroys bounded accuracy" when he could have gotten the same number with a lucky roll.

That and while ability checks aid in solving problems in my game, they are frequently not the solution. If I wanted something like to be a complex skill/RP challenge it wouldn't be resolved by a single roll.

Getting a 15 with a 2 & 26 with a 13 goes back to 3.5 style "don't even bother if not specialized for it" type knowledge check DCs or "don't even bother asking for a roll, it's at the good end of BA at worst"

 

[Oofta]

Getting a 15 with a 2 & 26 with a 13 goes back to 3.5 style "don't even bother if not specialized for it" type knowledge check DCs or "don't even bother asking for a roll, it's at the good end of BA at worst"

They got a 26. At level 1 anybody with proficiency and an ability score of 16 could get that.

I don't see what the issue is other than you allowing application of advantage after the roll.

 

[Coroc]

5E's skill system works best if you never use it for anything important.

5es skill system works like intended if you use DCs which are appropriateand introduce thresholds for important stuff unless you want your teenage mutant ninja skillmonkey pirate to do stunts like hopping on the neck of the attacking dragon with a double salto mortale and double backstab it (which is totally ok if you like that playstyle btw).
BA is mainly to make level differences less important, so it has to affect the skill system also. It is not a tool to make the system more realistic in any context, but the good thing is it does put reason into some things like lowlevel mobs still being a thread to high level adventurers and stil lbe able to hit them and still stand a chance to survive a bit.

 

[Coroc]

Kind of like the difference between science and engineering.


View attachment 116925

Haha

You don't know many engineers do you? Duct tape is the absolute last resort our bunch would resort to.
There is a saying that an engineer likes to goldplate everything, which is a PITA for the procurement. But that is true, there are many more perfectionists among engineers than among the scientists.

The problem with some scientists is they are unable to participate in normal life, due to their focussed talent.
I tell you a true story about the company i work in. One of the employes was one of the best mathematicians they had, but the doorguard had to guide him to his office every single day or he would get lost on the way there, no joke!

 

[Oofta]

Haha

You don't know many engineers do you? Duct tape is the absolute last resort our bunch would resort to.
There is a saying that an engineer likes to goldplate everything, which is a PITA for the procurement. But that is true, there are many more perfectionists among engineers than among the scientists.

I have a brother-in-law and nephew that are engineers!

But yeah, it's just a common internet meme and there are all sorts of engineers out there.

The problem with some scientists is they are unable to participate in normal life, due to their focussed talent.
I tell you a true story about the company i work in. One of the employes was one of the best mathematicians they had, but the doorguard had to guide him to his office every single day or he would get lost on the way there, no joke!

Sounds like my brother-in-law. Not the engineer, the absent-minded-genius one. The one that I use as an exemplar of high int, low wisdom. Now he would absolutely take the duct tape route, and has. It even works sometimes.

 

[DND_Reborn]

BA is mainly to make level differences less important, so it has to affect the skill system also. It is not a tool to make the system more realistic in any context, but the good thing is it does put reason into some things like lowlevel mobs still being a thread to high level adventurers and stil lbe able to hit them and still stand a chance to survive a bit.

For myself (and others that have spoken up) this is something we don't like about BA. I want level to matter more. Even in 1E if you allow a 20 to always hit, mobs are still a threat and always were. BA didn't change much in that respect IMO. What BA did more was nerf AC. Without magic items, AC is more or less capped around 20 to 22 maybe. If you take away magic items from 1E, your AC won't get much below 0.