cross gender fun?

[Jolly Giant]

I hand out treasure and the players don't. I run most every monster in the book and don't allow the players to do so. I know ever facet of the adventure and the players have to find it out piece by piece.

Looks like there is no end to my hypocrisy

Don't be ridiculous Vaxalon, "Player" and "DM" are two very different jobs in the game.

Quit oversimplifying.

Seems you and I are the only ones who actually agree with one another one this thread, Billy!

 

[Vaxalon]

My sci-fi game is about low rent smugglers and mercenaries (he shows up with a Psioniscist...which I had expressly forbidden as previous experience had shown them to be "overpowered" for their point totals in the kind of game I was running).

I don't doubt that he could have added something to the game, but when I said "Make a Rogue or Fighter" I meant it. For everyone. Based on my previous experiences

When I said ""No Psionicists" I meant for anyone who wanted to play, again based on my previous experiences.

And when I say "no cross gender" Guess who I mean...and guess why.

They're somehow overpowered for your game? What powers do females have in your game?

Seriously, this is a false analogy. Being male or being female doesn't involve too much in the way of powers, at least not powers that show up very often.

Instead, what you have are subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) social, cognitive, and emotional differences. A DM who intends to run a well-rounded, complete game with a certain degree of versimilitude needs to be able to understand those differences. That is, unless his world doesn't have any women in it.

I do not understand the reluctance of some DM's to allow players to use cross-gender RP to explore those differences and understand them better.

I don't have the option to play very often. I'm almost always the DM. Whenever I am a player, I try to play a character that is different from me in important ways, so that I can explore different ways of thinking in order to be a better DM. One of the most challenging of these is to play a woman.

Why is this more challenging than, say, playing an Elf?

Simple.

There aren't any Elves across the table evaluating my portrayal, as to its versimilitude.

So at one time, I have an alien way of thinking (well, not TOO alien, but different enough) that I may never understand completely, that I really should be able to do a decent job of to run a game well, that has expert practitioners all around me.

It's like swimming with dolphins.

 

[Victim]

I don't really have a problem with people playing cross gender characters. I do have a problem with people mindless playing stereotypes, but I think that that issue transcends gender.

As a player, some character concepts just tend to create themselves as female or male. Certainly they could be "re-imagined" to be the opposite gender, but I think that the character loses something in the process. A certain part of the original idea and spirit is lost. Also, sometimes a play on stereotypes is intentional. For example, there's the "women are poor drivers" stereotype. In Speed, they play off the stereotype by making the person who drives the bus through lots of crazy stunts a woman. Or we look at superspies. The archetypical superspy is the handsome, suave, James Bond type character. One way to reverse the stereotype would be to make the not handsome, not suave spy, maybe a bit like Austin powers. Another way to alter the stereotype would be to reverse the gender.

 

[Teflon Billy]

They're somehow overpowered for your game? What powers do females have in your game?

You have missed the point entirely. Try re-reading the quote you pulled.

originally posted by me, Teflon Billy

...when I said "Make a Rogue or Fighter" I meant it. For everyone. Based on my previous experiences

When I said ""No Psionicists" I meant for anyone who wanted to play, again based on my previous experiences.

And when I say "no cross gender" Guess who I mean...and guess why.

I guess I should have answered it myself.

Guess who I mean: Everyone
Guess why: Based on my previous experience.

Nothing there about female character being overpowered. What it says is that--based on my previous experiences--the character-types in question were dissallowed for all player wishing to generate PC's.

Seriously, this is a false analogy. Being male or being female doesn't involve too much in the way of powers, at least not powers that show up very often.

Which has nothing to do with anyhting I've said to this point, up to and including the quote you pulled.

Instead, what you have are subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) social, cognitive, and emotional differences. A DM who intends to run a well-rounded, complete game with a certain degree of versimilitude needs to be able to understand those differences. That is, unless his world doesn't have any women in it.

I do not understand the reluctance of some DM's to allow players to use cross-gender RP to explore those differences and understand them better.

I'm glad you consider your game a tool for personal growth, I consider mine conduit for fun. My experiences have shown me that cross-gender pc's take away from fun more often than they add to it.

And if you really "do not understand the reluctance of some DM's to allow players to use cross gender RP to explore those differences", then lease re-read (or read) my contributions to this thread for a clearer picture.

I don't have the option to play very often. I'm almost always the DM. Whenever I am a player, I try to play a character that is different from me in important ways, so that I can explore different ways of thinking in order to be a better DM. One of the most challenging of these is to play a woman.

Well, great. Enjoy.

Not in my game.

Why is this more challenging than, say, playing an Elf?

Simple.

There aren't any Elves across the table evaluating my portrayal, as to its versimilitude.

So at one time, I have an alien way of thinking (well, not TOO alien, but different enough) that I may never understand completely, that I really should be able to do a decent job of to run a game well, that has expert practitioners all around me.

It's like swimming with dolphins.

We clearly use our games for different things. I'm not an actor of any stripe and I'm certainly not looking for a review of my performance from other players, Like I said, it's mostly about fun for me, and cross-gender RP has detracted from the fun at the table too many times in the past for me to see any value in it.

Elven RP? Not so much. Dwarven RP? equally so.

So they are still allowed. If their portrayals were constantly detrimental to the game, they would be gone as well.

and if people thought that was detrimental to the "therapy" aspect of the game, well I wouldn't lose sleep.

 

[Sialia]

Ok, definitely yes. I'm in favor.

I especially like those randomly handed out pre-gen characters I used to get back in the days when I attended cons. I loved getting the opportunity to play a character I never would have thought of rolling up for myself.

Playing a gender or race or class I hadn't tried recently kept me out of a rut. Gave me new opportunities to explore social dynamics, group dynamics, skills and abilities. It's fun. Cons are great because in four hours you can try all kinds of wacky stuff and not damage a character or campaign you've spent years creating, or wreck friendships with people you have to live with.

Another instance was when I had burned out on running a mature, responsible 20-something year old female cleric who wanted to make the world a better place, I rolled up an adolescent male who wanted to have fun.

Since I'd been complaining for months that the whole D&D system was biased towards the interests of adolescent males, getting to play one gave me the opportunity to stop trying to make the genre fit my own sensibilities, and fit my sensibilities to the genre. I was right. D&D is more fun when you're completely immature and irresponsible, beleive that you're immortal and have no problems accepting the premise that it's ok to kill people and take their stuff, especially if they are of a different race or tech level.

Why not do that with a female character? I suppose I could have, but it wouldn't have rung as true. Most females I know don't do violence casually or for entertainment. Most of us need to get real worked up and invested before we get violent, and then it's not for fun, it's for keeps. Girls don't even usually touch each other when they play--guys roughhouse all the time. Girls sometimes roughhouse with boys, but almost never with each other. There's a reason--when girls roughhouse, it gets mean and ugly, and it's not usually fun.

Guys can punch stuff and get slugged and somehow not take it personally. Pretending to be that carefree really was . . . enlightening. Entertaining.

But I regret that so many male gamers seem anxious about trying on female personas. They're fun in their own way. I usually run female characters because I think every party needs some for balance. Mixed gender groups are always better. If no one else will run the womenfolk, then I will always volunteer, because it needs to be done.

Somebody's got to stop and ask directions once in a while.

 

[Reynard]

When I DM, I allow PCs to pretty much play whatever sort of character they like (within the confines of the setting and genre, of course). I have had some players engage in cross-gender RPing that has significantly contributed to the fun and entertainment of everyone in the group, myself included. I have had some players RP cross-gender characters that seriously detracted from everyone's fun. Guess which characters I killed off and which players I did not ask to return?

In general, there really isn't a "reason" to play a character of an opposite gender. However, if your group consists primarily or entirely of male players, something opccurs that I don't think people think about: you lose a number of ingrained genre-conventions, particularly for fantasy (and especially modern, epic fantasy). From Laurana and Tika in the original Dragonlance trilogy to the various Aes Sedai (sp?) in the Wheel of Time, to Arwyn in LotR, females of all stripes have a place in fantasy like no other genre. If you don't have any female PCs in your group, you likely don't have any females heroes in your world. Even our rather mundane world's history is rife with heroines. It is an important part of myth building and folklore.

Sometimes this can be alleviated by an NPC or two (my usual method when I don't have anyone in the group comfortable or interested in playinga female PC) that fills that void. But it is nicer if someone besides you is creating a great story element based upon the heroine archetype.

Besides, a bigger concern for me isn't so much male-female ratios, but RPing relationships in the game. I enjoy it and, in my opinion based upon what players have told me, I am good at it (meaning, I help a player create an interesting and fun mini-drama surrounding such universal themes as unrequited love or family-versus-duty). Most players, though, aren't comfortable with this sort of gaming. This is only bad because fantasy is an inherently romantic genre, and very often (in the literature) saving the world is dependant upon love. Without it, its just Conan lopping the heads off cultists and monsters (and even he had a girlfriend or two).

 

[Tsyr]

Question for those of you who say "Any concept can work equaly as well male or female" (I don't agree in the first place, but assuming I did)

What about games like Wheel of Time, Hackmaster, Harnworld (I assume, from what I've heard of it, don't know for sure), etc that have differences between the genders, either in terms of power (Wheel of Time favors females in some respects), or in terms of how people are treated in the world (all three). Does it change then? Because in these worlds, the off the cuff "anything can work as a male OR female" argument is weakened, if not destroyed alltogether.

 

[SSS-Druid]

Absolutely folks are allowed to play characters of a gender they are not in my game.

In my experience, is the player is the kind who is going to stereotype, they are going to do so regardless of what limits I put on it. Frankly, I've gotten way more "tough, silent loner" types than I ever have "man-hating lesbian" types.

Stereotypes suck all the way around.

And, frankly, yes there are reasons why one might play a female character that have everything to do with gender. These kinds of themes cannot be played for a male character (depending, of course, on the setting).

For instance, the player wants to play a character that has something to do with breaking away from gender roles in the campaign setting. There are many interesting characters in fiction that represent exactly this kind of thing, and the expectations of men and women are going to be *very* different in most campaign settings.

Plus, there are simply some fun archetypes that I'd rather not limit out of my campaign. I don't give a toss whether or not someone is playing someone of another gender or not - they are all held to the same yardstick:

If you are contributing the fun being had, then everything is gravy. If you aren't, then I doubt it has anything to do with the kind of character you are playing, and far more with who you are as a player, quite frankly.

Just my twopence.

 

[Black Omega]

Question for those of you who say "Any concept can work equaly as well male or female" (I don't agree in the first place, but assuming I did)

I have to admit I can't build character concepts with 'lego blocks', this bit is gender, this is race, this is specialty, and any of it can just be swapped out for another 'block'. My concepts tend to be pretty 'whole cloth'. Captain Ultra, my male supercharged human superstrong superhero character, is a concept. Asking why he can't be female for me is like asking why he's not an energy being or alien instead of human, or why he's superstrong instead of throwing energy blasts. Those are not the concept.

As a player I do cross-gender quite a bit, and I tend to think my female characters mightr be a little better since I put more time into creation to avoid the bad sterotyped characters mentioned by others.

As a GM it makes little difference to me. The group I GM for is all male, but out of seven characters, two are female, and it's worked pretty well. My NPC's are a fearless mix of male and female. The big baddie in a previous story arc was an 80 year old female crimeboss.

 

[Maldur]

I have no problems with players playing a cross-gender character. But I find it highly confusing, when talking to characters.

Me: "so lad........ehrg las, where you of to?"