cross gender fun?

[Mark Chance]

Hmm....

Originally posted by Balsamic Dragon This kind of thing is simply an attempt to start a flamewar and is not particularly condusive to the thread. Please take your political/sociological views elsewhere.

Hmm. Don't see your name on the moderator list here. Did you get promoted?

Your attempts at being psychic aside, I am not attempting to start a flamewar. I am noting a scientific fact (that gender is not a social construct) along with a personal observation (about the shoddy academic merits of most women's studies programs). The first is irrefutable by all available scientific data; the second is my opinion (and not just my opinion, but one shared by many people who keep an eye on academic trends).

If you don't like my opinion, feel free to disagree politely, but don't presume the authority to dictate my motives or to dismiss me to "elsewhere."

All in all, your opinions have been duly noted and are being given the consideration they deserve. I have nothing more to say on this topic (meaning your imperious reply, not the thread in general, although I may be done with the thread as well since it is a bit stale).

 

[mirzabah]

I have had bad experiences with guys playing "total sluts" who attempt to trade sex for anyting they want (and given the charisma involved, I usually can't find a compelling reason to deny it), or Steely-eyed Lesbians, who behave in no way different from their male brethen except to freak out at male sexual interest (usually violently).

I obviously haven't played around as much as you Billy, so I haven't seen playing quite as bad as you describe, but I kinda know where you're coming from. Still, a couple of the (male) players in my group are playing females and it's not an issue. I guess my attitude if it ever did become a problem would not be to eliminate cross-gender play from my table, but to get rid of the cerveaux de merde player who was ruining the game for everyone...

Worse are the Immersion RP'ers who occasionally frequent my table playing out their transexual fantasies (this was most Vampire: the Masquerade mind you).

I thought that was kinda de rigueur for V:tM.

 

[Ashtal]

In the context of A GAME, yes, gender is purely cosmetic. It becomes a choice, just like hair color, racial background, weapon preference and class.

So please, let's leave real-world theories out of this. Unless the game has in-game rules differences or options based on gender, then the choice is largely cosmetic.


Ashtal

 

[Mark Chance]

Could be, but...

In the context of A GAME, yes, gender is purely cosmetic. It becomes a choice, just like hair color, racial background, weapon preference and class.

But isn't treating foundational concepts such as race and gender as cosmetic (i.e., on the same level as hair color) a bit (and I do hate using this word when talking about games) unrealistic?

The large part of the objections to playing cross-gender seems to be that it is done without any real thought or effort. IOW, that a character's gender is treated as a cosmetic feature rather than a defining element of personality that is truly is.

I'm certainly no wanna-be method-actor roleplayer, but I do enjoy trying to present a reasonably convincing role. This is why I shy away from female PCs: not because I cannot do them justice, but because of the effort it takes to portray a female consistently.

As a man, I can play a convincing woman, but not with the same degree of accuracy and consistency as I can a convincing man.

All that said, I don't have a problem in principle with a player going cross-gender in the game, but I certainly forbid outright such indefensibly profane in-game activities as rape, sexual molestation, et cetera. If that is a person's idea of entertainment, he's simply not welcome in my house.

 

[Ashtal]

Re: Could be, but...

But isn't treating foundational concepts such as race and gender as cosmetic (i.e., on the same level as hair color) a bit (and I do hate using this word when talking about games) unrealistic?

The large part of the objections to playing cross-gender seems to be that it is done without any real thought or effort. IOW, that a character's gender is treated as a cosmetic feature rather than a defining element of personality that is truly is.

Well, in the game we're all playing, race IS a matter of simple choice. "Do I want to be human? An elf? Maybe a dwarf?"

These are all defining elements of a person, even an imaginary one, but we are allowed to freely choose our race based on personal preference. The same goes for games with a rich variety of ethnic backgrounds, such as the Forgotten Realms - again, a matter of choice, whim and fancy. Why should gender be any different?

All that said, I don't have a problem in principle with a player going cross-gender in the game, but I certainly forbid outright such indefensibly profane in-game activities as rape, sexual molestation, et cetera. If that is a person's idea of entertainment, he's simply not welcome in my house.

I should hope that such profanity isn't welcome in your game. It's certainly not welcome in mine and I would go so far as to say it isn't welcome in the game worlds of anyone else in this thread, for or against cross-gender playing. But that has nothing to do with whether someone wants to have a cross-gender character. They do not go hand in hand and honestly, the implied suggestion that they do, or would, is offensive to me.

 

[alsih2o]

wow. i never actually thought this thread would stir up such a controversy.

i had actually hoped to get regaled with more of the sparkling humor evident in so many other posts here on the boards, thus the title: cross gender fun!

i am not against the debate...i am actually all for a healthy debate on any of a range of topics...but as far as the threads intent went.....is anyone having fun? or have a fun cross-gender story to tell?

 

[Ashtal]

Hee. I have general game-goodness fun, but nothing specifically cross-gender oriented.

Well, okay, the only 'funny' I have is that when I last played a male character, my Half-Orc fighter (with the sweeeeeetest stats ... plus I always envisioned him as Tyr from Andromeda), it took me forever to get one of the other players to refer to my character during discussions as a 'he'. I was constantly correcting him.

Then we finished that game and began a new campaign, run by the player. I did such a good job that now he constantly refered to my two new female characters as 'he' for the first five games or so, until he got untrained out of it.

 

[Mark Chance]

Re: Re: Could be, but...

Why should gender be any different?

I never said it should be any different in terms of being a player's choice. My only point is that, in terms of characterization, things such as gender and race (freely chosen) are more important that hair color (also freely chosen).

But that has nothing to do with whether someone wants to have a cross-gender character.

Reading a few people's experiences herein, it would seem that in some people's minds the two (heinous behavior and cross-gender gaming) do go hand-in-hand. That is not my view on the matter, but is merely an assessment of what has been posted.

They do not go hand in hand and honestly, the implied suggestion that they do, or would, is offensive to me.

Your inference is not my implication. Before I get offended about something, I at least make an effort to determine if there really is anything to be offended about.

Did I say that anyone who plays cross-gender is a sexual deviant? No. Did I pull together an observation about reported behaviors made by the few people who forbid cross-gender playing in their games? Yes.

 

[Ashtal]

I don't recall saying you in particular were charging all cross-gender players as being that way - my response was to the thread, and that concept, in general.

By disallowing players from playing cross-gender, it implies that it's somehow wrong. And I think that idea is misguided, personally. There's a difference between an individual unable to handle it, and the concept of the thing itself. By all means, if Bob can't prevent himself from being an idiot when he plays cross-gender, don't let him play cross-gender in your games (if you end up letting him play with you at all - idiot once, likely an idiot again). But to across-the-board disallow it seems reactionary and over the top, IMO.

 

[Mark Chance]

Quite Right...

I don't recall saying you in particular were charging all cross-gender players as being that way - my response was to the thread, and that concept, in general.

Which just further highlights the pitfalls of confusing implication with inference. Mea culpa maxima. I shall now spank myself.

But to across-the-board disallow it [cross-gender playing] seems reactionary and over the top, IMO.

I quite agree. I guess I'm lucky that after over two decades of gaming I have yet to be so desparate for players or a game that I feel compelled to tolerate idiots and then amend my style of play to compensate for their idiocy.

I'm reminded of a fellow complaining about a 17-year-old gamer in his group exhibiting an annoying degree of immaturity. Aside from the stock comment ("Duh. What were you expecting?"), I couldn't help but wonder why he (who is about my age of mid-30s) is gaming with a 17-year-old.