D&D 5E Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter vs. Defensive Duelist in a cage match

[FormerlyHemlock]

That's what I was concerned about. It felt like the Archer should do more than just shoot for parity with Brutus, but I couldn't think of anything that would actually help in a cage fight.

Yeah. I just can't think of anything that really works without changing his build.

I think in the case of that ruling, the problem was that they almost worked themselves into a hole making it still viable (and not a one off gimmick to open a fight with) while still requiring the "realism" of needing two hands to reload a crossbow. It's an odd ruling, for sure.

This is insightful--but I don't think it's an actual corner. I think of the main benefit of Crossbow Expert as being that you get to use heavier weapons like a Heavy Crossbow. The fact that you can carry around a bandolier of loaded hand crossbows and snatch them up to fire them with your bonus action at the same time as your regular attack is just gravy. It doesn't make the feat useless or anything, it just makes it less cheesey and more logistically difficult. (Juggling all of your crossbows and hoping they don't go off at the wrong time, vastly amusing the DM and other players.)

I thought about the levels of rogue, but not having run the math, I realized I didn't know how many levels you need for Sneak attack to offset the lack of a third attack, let alone exceed it. This is, of course, assuming that you take rogue something other than sneak attack (as I just realized that in a level 12 build you only needed one level in Rogue to get a net gain from Sneak attack and not lose your third attack)

See post directly above this one. I fixed a serious bug which made the monsters too tough, and added a Champion/Rogue hybrid named D'Artagnan in this version here: https://repl.it/EyQy/8

As expected, the addition of Athletics Expertise and Uncanny Dodge and 4d6 of sneak attack helps him do noticeably better than Rufus against either the elemental or the Slaad, despite getting no bonus from his Archery style and losing an extra attack and not getting to use his Cunning Action for anything because of the cage.

Rufus the Archer wins 100 out of 100 matches against Gronk the Earthling, with 101.420000 HP remaining (81.790323% of total)
Brutus the Tank wins 100 out of 100 matches against Gronk the Earthling, with 113.900000 HP remaining (91.854839% of total)
D'Artagnan the Swashbuckler wins 100 out of 100 matches against Gronk the Earthling, with 107.250000 HP remaining (86.491935% of total)

Rufus the Archer wins 55 out of 100 matches against Black Beastie, with 24.340000 HP remaining (19.629032% of total)
Brutus the Tank wins 100 out of 100 matches against Black Beastie, with 76.790000 HP remaining (61.927419% of total)
D'Artagnan the Swashbuckler wins 81 out of 100 matches against Black Beastie, with 37.420000 HP remaining (30.177419% of total)


Fighter/Rogue in general is a pretty good multiclass combination for an archer.

Feel free to play around with the script and experiment with different combinations of class levels.

 

[flametitan]

Just a thought I had, but aren't both the Elemental and the Slaad primarily melee attackers?

How would I go about adding a ranged opponent to fight in the cage; would that change anything at all? (I assume ultimately it'd end similarly to the other fights, as they would run into the same issues as Rufus does, and not have the space to kite freely)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The sim in its current state ignores distance entirely. If you want something that includes ranged opponents, you'd have to either (1) learn enough F# to modify the logic instead of just adding more monsters; or (2) nag me a little to finish and publish the project I've had sitting on my shelf for weeks but keep getting distracted from. Goal is for BEAST 5E (Brain-dead Simple Simulation Tool for 5E) to have a GUI that lets you choose the PC stats, which monsters they'll face in which order, and when they get rests. BEAST still won't have a sophisticated geometry--it will use Theatre of the Mind and will approach ranged vs. not-ranged combat in the same way as Bards Tale or Wizardry, basically just a linear order of who gets attacked first, so basically it's only good for simulating cramped dungeon crawls and not wilderness encounters or warfare. But I want it to be usable by non-programmers.

The existence of this thread has been good for my motivation in getting things done, but there's still some work to do in terms of learning enough CSS/HTML/React to make the GUI.

BTW I wouldn't characterize a Death Slaad as primarily a melee attacker; it's a hybrid melee attacker/spellcaster with some very effective techniques at its disposal such as Cloudkill + Blindsight for advantage for Slaad and disadvantage for its attackers. That neutralizes Prone. It also inflicts damage every round of course on everyone including the Slaad, but I figure Slaads regenerate and don't care much about pain, so they wouldn't hesitate to drop one on themselves.

 

[Azurewraith]

I have all ways held that under BA defense will be superior to offense every single time. There's a reason why my GM cries whenever I play a oath of ancients paladin/wizard because having a base 21ac(plate+defense style+shield) is broken as hell throw in blade Ward and shield spell with some dodges and your laughing for days in that 5ft dungeon corridor. Use spells you say? Well paladin has you covered with +cha to saves and resistance to spells.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

See post directly above this one. I fixed a serious bug which made the monsters too tough, and added a Champion/Rogue hybrid named D'Artagnan in this version here: https://repl.it/EyQy/8

As expected, the addition of Athletics Expertise and Uncanny Dodge and 4d6 of sneak attack helps him do noticeably better than Rufus against either the elemental or the Slaad, despite getting no bonus from his Archery style and losing an extra attack and not getting to use his Cunning Action for anything because of the cage.

Rufus the Archer wins 100 out of 100 matches against Gronk the Earthling, with 101.420000 HP remaining (81.790323% of total)
Brutus the Tank wins 100 out of 100 matches against Gronk the Earthling, with 113.900000 HP remaining (91.854839% of total)
D'Artagnan the Swashbuckler wins 100 out of 100 matches against Gronk the Earthling, with 107.250000 HP remaining (86.491935% of total)

Rufus the Archer wins 55 out of 100 matches against Black Beastie, with 24.340000 HP remaining (19.629032% of total)
Brutus the Tank wins 100 out of 100 matches against Black Beastie, with 76.790000 HP remaining (61.927419% of total)
D'Artagnan the Swashbuckler wins 81 out of 100 matches against Black Beastie, with 37.420000 HP remaining (30.177419% of total)


Fighter/Rogue in general is a pretty good multiclass combination for an archer.

Feel free to play around with the script and experiment with different combinations of class levels.

How is D'Artagnan able to take advantage of the 4d6 Sneak Attack? If he is using a Crossbow, what is letting him get Advantage each round in order to apply the damage?

 

[Colder]

How is D'Artagnan able to take advantage of the 4d6 Sneak Attack? If he is using a Crossbow, what is letting him get Advantage each round in order to apply the damage?

In the post where he showed up, it was stated he's using a +1 rapier over his +1 longbow.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

How is D'Artagnan able to take advantage of the 4d6 Sneak Attack? If he is using a Crossbow, what is letting him get Advantage each round in order to apply the damage?

He's a Champion 5/Swashbuckler 7. He doesn't need advantage to make sneak attacks. That is in fact why I made him a Swashbuckler instead of an Arcane Trickster--they make the best archers, and they're also very simple to model in code.

But he has advantage anyway because, as you'll see if you look at the combat logs, he never makes an attack unless he's already got the Slaad grappled and prone first.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

He's a Champion 5/Swashbuckler 7. He doesn't need advantage to make sneak attacks. That is in fact why I made him a Swashbuckler instead of an Arcane Trickster--they make the best archers, and they're also very simple to model in code.

But he has advantage anyway because, as you'll see if you look at the combat logs, he never makes an attack unless he's already got the Slaad grappled and prone first.

Ahhh, gotcha. Thanks!

 

[Ashkelon]

I have all ways held that under BA defense will be superior to offense every single time. There's a reason why my GM cries whenever I play a oath of ancients paladin/wizard because having a base 21ac(plate+defense style+shield) is broken as hell throw in blade Ward and shield spell with some dodges and your laughing for days in that 5ft dungeon corridor. Use spells you say? Well paladin has you covered with +cha to saves and resistance to spells.

This is less about defense and more about prone creatures being unable to stand while grappled though. The fighter in question only has an 18 or 19 AC. Yes he is using his reaction for defensive duelist (and yes if he was a caster he would also have the shield spell), but the biggest contributor to his defense is that the target he has knocked prone makes all of its attacks with disadvantage.

If a grappled creature was allowed to stand from prone, this whole scenario would play out very differently. IMHO it is one of the many big oversights of the 5e rules that a grappled creature is not allowed to stand from prone.

Also, while this strategy might be the best one around when used against solo enemies of large size or smaller, it is exponentially worse when used against groups of enemies or when enemies are huge+ sized.

 

[Satyrn]

But he has advantage anyway because, as you'll see if you look at the combat logs, he never makes an attack unless he's already got the Slaad grappled and prone first.

Huh. When you called this a cage match, I didn't realize you meant UFC. Is it at least a fun sort of grappling to watch?