D&D 5E CRs and what is going on?

[ExploderWizard]

I'm going to date myself, but some of the conversation we've been having (re: difficulty strength, resource management, 7th level adventurers taking on a Balrog... sorry, Balor, etc.) reminds me of this classic:

One of the problems with D&D is that the players always know too much. This is news?

“You obtain surprise over three Clickclicks.”
“Clickclicks? Oh, yeah, they’re in Supplement Three. Hand it to me. And where’s Greyhawk? It had a note about them.”

A pause.

“We shout out ‘November’.”
“That’s right, the Clickclicks fall over dead.”

(Source- 1977)

This is because the modern game has become a challenge for the character sheets rather than the players. Can your numbers overcome the DM's numbers? They can if you roll well!

 

[ExploderWizard]

5E is a very easy game. Players do far more damage as a group, especially if you are including feats, than monsters. Creatures like Balors don't have a bunch of spells with high DCs for challenging parties. They don't have ACs so high level 7 characters can't hit them. Nothing is like 3E. This game is built to play fast and easy with everything decided by damage in combat. No save or die spells. Multiple saves for save or lose spells like petrification. So damage is king. Characters always have the damage advantage against solo creatures unless you specifically build the creature to be otherwise.

I'd start by boosting ACs on creatures like Balors. It's a bit ridiculous that level 7 PCs can beat a balor. Not sure why the game designers at WotC thought it was cool to make the balor as weak as it is. It's not CR 19 in this game.

I don't like the idea of making really big creatures harder to hit by simple metagame reasons such as challenge rating. Harder to damage, perhaps yes. A creature such as balor is huge, and easy to hit, but ancient and powerful. No Joe Schmoe with a +1 sword should be just hacking it to pieces. That makes it not very scary at all.

For a balor, I would give it DR 15/ legendary (7th). This means that this bad boy has DR 15 vs. any weapon that is not legendary in rarity or magic below the 7th level in power. Thus most normal hits from standard magic weapons will be greatly reduced in effect, as will lesser magics. A 7th level party would not want to tangle with that balor unless they were overloaded with legendary weapons.

 

[MontyKC1974]

This is because the modern game has become a challenge for the character sheets rather than the players. Can your numbers overcome the DM's numbers? They can if you roll well!

Yeah Pathfinder is the epitome of this. One of the players in our game calls it "Mathfinder".

5th Edition is all about good rolls or bad rolls. A few bad rolls and bam the party dies. A few good rolls and the fight is not a challenge.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

As for the fight itself. One of the Goristros rolled a 1 on its save vs Banish. One of the Goristros got hammered by the entire party, while the other two were held up by the NPCs.

Okay, I see two possible issues here:

1.) Banishment is a concentration spell. If the wizard loses concentration, the Goristro comes back. The enemies should be smart enough try to break concentration, either directly via Goristro charge (80-odd points of damage will destroy any concentration spell) or via Lightning Bolt/Dispel Magic/etc. from the enemy cleric or wizard.

BTW, I'm AFB, but don't Goristros have Magic Resistance? Did the Goristro roll double 1s then or do I misremember?

2.) If there are multiple NPCs involved in addition to the six PCs, then that party is not just large, it's huge. I believe a Goristro is Huge though, which means that Medium-sized creatures like NPCs cannot block its movement. It could have and probably should have just charged right over the NPCs to Gore the Banishment wizard for 80-ish points of damage.

Oh, and a couple of tactical observations too:

1.) The enemy cleric wasted time healing the Balor, but in-combat healing is extremely inefficient. It would be more effective for him to Banish two or three of the PCs right back with Banishment V or VI (whatever he can manage). Although Hold Person VI would probably be better.

2.) The wizard can Counterspell the PCs' spells, and he can Wall of Force to cut some PCs off from the rest so that they have to fight the bad guys all alone. It sounds like you tried to cast disabling spells like Hypnotic Pattern, which was a good plan, but I guess the PCs have a Paladin with Bless or something because you say they saved against everything. That's how it goes, I guess, but Wall of Force at least does not rely on saving throws. (Neither does Wall of Stone actually, although it's only castable on stony ground.) Not to second guess you or anything, but if the PCs all save vs. Hypnotic Pattern successfully my next move would probably be to try Wall of Force so we can divide and conquer.

There's no question in my mind that the Goristros + Balor + spellcasters could have pwned that party.

 

[Celtavian]

I don't like the idea of making really big creatures harder to hit by simple metagame reasons such as challenge rating. Harder to damage, perhaps yes. A creature such as balor is huge, and easy to hit, but ancient and powerful. No Joe Schmoe with a +1 sword should be just hacking it to pieces. That makes it not very scary at all.

For a balor, I would give it DR 15/ legendary (7th). This means that this bad boy has DR 15 vs. any weapon that is not legendary in rarity or magic below the 7th level in power. Thus most normal hits from standard magic weapons will be greatly reduced in effect, as will lesser magics. A 7th level party would not want to tangle with that balor unless they were overloaded with legendary weapons.

How did the game designers decide the Balor's AC? You want to create a legendary creature, you should have an idea of who you want to be able to be it. That is the essence of encounter design. When you make a monster book, you're asking yourself, "What level character is this creature made for?" Then you design it accordingly.

AC is not how hard you are to hit necessarily. It's how hard it is to land a hit that does damage. If you raise the Balor's AC, narratively speaking you describe hits as glancing off its ancient demonic skin. Just as if a quick creature is missed, you describe it as dodging. Or a highly skilled fighter might deflect the blow with its sword. You know how this is, Exploder. You use the tools at your disposal like AC and damage resistance/immunity to develop the challenge you think a creature should be. In 5E damage resistance/immunity is ineffective. Resistance is pretty weak. Immunity is an on/off ability that either works too well or not at all. So your main means to prevent easy hits and killing in 5E is hit points (boost them to enormous levels) or AC (stop damaging hits).

My experience is DR is very weak and nearly useless. It seemed strong until we started playing. Then it became apparent it was a nearly useless ability.

 

[MontyKC1974]

Yeah I know I could have played the group better. But I think it did what it was supposed to do on such short notice. They moved past a pretty large plot line and now are onto the meat of the game. Which will be to go north to the Troll and orc controlled lands. Where numbers of creatures will be king for about 4 to 6 sessions depending on the party.

And I disagree with DR. Especially something like -/epic. That means I stop everything from melee damage to spells, to effects to on and on it goes. Id count DR/epic as counting vs ANYTHING.

Although resistance to all damage not coming from legendary sources is halved would also work.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yeah I know I could have played the group better. But I think it did what it was supposed to do on such short notice. They moved past a pretty large plot line and now are onto the meat of the game. Which will be to go north to the Troll and orc controlled lands. Where numbers of creatures will be king for about 4 to 6 sessions depending on the party.

Sure, not trying to criticize, just to explain. I'm responding to your puzzlement at the PCs' victory, and pointing out some things that the Goristros could do differently next time to make the exact same fight turn out much differently--so you don't have to be afraid of not having anything to challenge the PCs with at level 15. The PCs might even be overconfident due to their previous victory.

 

[MontyKC1974]

Sure, not trying to criticize, just to explain. I'm responding to your puzzlement at the PCs' victory, and pointing out some things that the Goristros could do differently next time to make the exact same fight turn out much differently--so you don't have to be afraid of not having anything to challenge the PCs with at level 15. The PCs might even be overconfident due to their previous victory.

Didnt take it with criticism! Just noting that now that you all are giving me all this good info, looking back on the time crunch I was under since the characters wanted to hunt the balor down and so on that at least the fight did what it was supposed to do.

They will definitly be overconfident. Which will be fun.

 

[Pickles III]

I don't like the idea of making really big creatures harder to hit by simple metagame reasons such as challenge rating. Harder to damage, perhaps yes.
....

For a balor, I would give it DR 15/ legendary (7th). This means that this bad boy has DR 15 vs. any weapon that is not legendary in rarity or magic below the 7th level in power. Thus most normal hits from standard magic weapons will be greatly reduced in effect, as will lesser magics. A 7th level party would not want to tangle with that balor unless they were overloaded with legendary weapons.

This is the game where plate armour makes you harder to hit remember.

I like your way of thinking though not that it is any less meta-gamey.

And DR 15 is probably too severe - the most you can do with a 2h sword is 17 without it being magical.

I would not introduce DR like that as it's not really a 5e thing. Just making its innate resistance work on all non legendary weapons not just non magical ones.

Really thought the problem is that the 5e CRs are not very good & the XP values scale at the wrong pace (to fast relative to their threat)

The Balor seems especially feeble though especially if he cannot leverage his flight & reach and eyballing the DMG would make him more like CR 12 or 13 (still easy though)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

They will definitly be overconfident. Which will be fun.

To make them even more overconfident, have the wizard turn three of the Goristros and himself invisible before the PCs show up. Even better, cast a Major Illusion VI (permanent until dispelled) of the Balor so the PCs blow their alpha strikes on someone who isn't even really there.