crystal spheres ?

[freyar]

So after seeing a lot of vague references in older edition products and finding a few words about them on Wikipedia (can't figure out where on spelljammer.org to look!), I gather that crystal spheres are basically large containers for each different setting world on the prime material plane. Presumably this helps keep deities separate, etc. But can somebody help me understand how this relates to the planar cosmology, which presumably can cross between the crystal spheres?

Obviously, this isn't a question of earth-shattering importance, but it's been bugging me for a while, so help is appreciated!

 

[Ambrus]

You're essentially correct.

Crystal Spheres
A crystal sphere (also known as a crystal shell) is a gigantic spherical shell which contains an entire planetary system. Each sphere varies in size but typically they are twice the diameter of the orbit of the planet that is furthest from the sun or planet at the centre of the sphere (the system's primary).

The surface of the sphere is called the "sphere wall" and separates the void of "wildspace" (within the sphere) from the "phlogiston" (that surrounds and flows outside the sphere). The sphere wall has no gravity and appears to be impossible to damage by any normal or magical means. Portals allow spelljamming ships or wildspace creatures to pass through the sphere wall and enter or exit from a crystal sphere. Portals can spontaneously open and close anywhere on the sphere wall. Magical spells (or magical items that reproduce their effects) can allow a portal to be located. Other magic can open a new portal or collapse an existing one. Ships or creatures passing through a portal when it closes may be cut in two.

Note that unlike the Ptolemaic system, the crystal spheres are not nested within each other.


The Phlogiston
The phlogiston (also known as "the Flow") is a bright, extremely combustible gas-like medium that exists between the Crystal Spheres. Every crystal sphere floats in the phlogiston, very slowly bobbing up and down over time. Travel between Crystal Spheres is facilitated by the formation of "Flow rivers" — sections of the phlogiston which have a current and greatly reduce travel time. Travel through the "slow flow" (i.e. off the Flow rivers) is possible, but very dangerous.

 

[Nyeshet]

Having not read much spelljammer, much of what I am about to say is supposition based upon my understanding of where the concept of crystal spheres came from. That said . . .

It was once believed that the stars were set in the heavens - literally points of light / fire embedded in solid crystal spheres. There were several layers of these hollow, thick walled spheres. The outer-most one held the star, while inner ones held a planet (a wandering star - Incidentally the word 'planet' comes from an old other language term meaning 'wanderer.), the moon, or the sun. Later it was decided that some of these spheres were not so much solid as simply seeming solid to our eyes. The path of the outer planets, for example, seemed to use epicycles to pass through the apparent spheres of other planets.

In any case, the entire 'universe' was basically housed inside these multi-layered crystal spheres.

Spell jammer and Planescape, as I understand it, took the position that this was a literal truth, and each D&D world system (Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, etc) was embedded in its own crystal sphere - all of which existed on a single Prime. Through the use of planar travel or spell jammer ships the vast and complex distances between these spheres could be traversed, allowing characters made in one system to travel to and continue to play in another system as part of an epic (or pre-epic) journey.

3e made a bit of a change to this, suggesting that each Crystal Sphere was its own Prime - and thus only extra planar travel (through the Shadow plane, as I recall) could allow travel between worlds. I think this is mostly because they have not yet re-introduced SpellJammer.

These links might help a bit:
Greek Cosmology
http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/images/aristotelian_cosmo.gif


Does this more or less answer your question?

 

[freyar]

Still wondering I guess how this kind of concept integrates with planescape, but I guess I'm starting to get the picture. I'm a theoretical physicist/cosmologist IRL, so this kind of question really gets at me.

 

[saucercrab]

Still wondering I guess how this kind of concept integrates with planescape, but I guess I'm starting to get the picture. I'm a theoretical physicist/cosmologist IRL, so this kind of question really gets at me.

It didn't really integrate with Planescape directly.

Crystal spheres & the Phlogiston were aspects of & contained within the whole Prime Material Plane. Kind of similar to layers in outer planes.

 

[the Jester]

The dissonance between the Spelljammer crystal sphere setup and the standard "alternate material planes" cosmology is one of the things about SJ that really bugged me. There wasn't really any effort (at least, that I ever saw) to reconcile them.

 

[GQuail]

The dissonance between the Spelljammer crystal sphere setup and the standard "alternate material planes" cosmology is one of the things about SJ that really bugged me. There wasn't really any effort (at least, that I ever saw) to reconcile them.

Still wondering I guess how this kind of concept integrates with planescape

To be fair, Spelljammer predates Planescape by a bit, doesn't it? And whilst the Great Wheel is the default cosmology pretty much from the get go (albeit not quite as we recognise it today) the planes were a lot more haphazard an invention in the early days.

Spelljammer doesn't really plug into the planes if you use both as written: they each are doing essentially the same thing, providing access to "out theres" to travel to, and connecting pre-existing campaign settings into the bargain. In particular, the former always seemed to feel a lot more "first edition", despite being an 2nd ed product: the latter is much more rooted in it's own dinstinct direction. Ultimately, the idea of "heavens", "hells" and what not are far more typical fantasy fare than Spelljammers crystal spheres - so D&D carried on with the latter, Greyhawk Ruins notwithstanding. ;-)

In my own campaing world, I just had some Spelljammer related antics: the Neogi, supposedly a dead race on my world, arrived in some kind of giant flying spider-ship. They had caused a revolt in a city using their mind powers just so they could blag some slaves and make off with them. I did have to spend some time plugging the idea into what I had revealed about my planar cosmology, though, as well as considering if it would be too "silly" an idea. (Oh, and do I want to risk my players getting their hands on their own spaceship?) It worked out pretty well, in the end, and my group is light-hearted enough that they could roll with it - and the ship is a Lifejammer, so they won't hurry to get it into the air. Still, it's not for everyone: in particular, I'm wary of how the PC whose player has a doctorate in Physics will react when she realises that the planet does not orbit a sun, but the other way round, or that there's a crystal sphere cutting the system off for a flammable soup outside...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The way I'd incorporate that with 3e's changed cosmology and cosmologies:

Each "game world" (FR's Toril, GreyHawk's Oerth and so on), has its own Material Plane, to which its own outer planes is connected, and is its own Planet, encased by a Crystal Sphere (which probably keeps the air in)

GH has the usual Great Wheel, the FR have their new-fangled cosmology with their Tree of Life and River of Blood (and, if I remember correctly, other cosmologies for the other continents), and so on.

Now, if you want to move from one Material Plane to another (say, you're a mage from Waterdeep and want to go ask Mordenkainen a question about one of his hand spells, and what his fixation with hands is all about, anyway), you can't just use teleport to go there, since it involves planar travel. It's likely that not even Gate works across cosmologies.

You do have a couple of options:

The Deep Shadow: Usually, the Plane of shadow is a dark mirror to the prime, but once you go off the border, you enter the Deep Shadow, that really is its own dark realm. This is said to connect different Material Planes, though it is not necessarily a well-travelled path, at least not by Primes who survive the trip, so don't expect to get a roadmap in every little town library.

Sigil: This planar metropolis, which goes by so many names, contains a gate to most every plane, layer, and place, including all those different material planes, and all the planes in the different cosmologies. It probably even contains gates to some places that are supposedly unreachable. This, of course, has its own problems, since the gates aren't marked, and many require a key (either an item, or just adhering to certain rules, like activate it only at midnight or only by a halfling with no arcane ability), so this isn't a straightforward path, either.

Traveling through Wildspace: In addition to the traditional ways of travel between far places, you can also brave the Great Void that connects all the planets. Doing so is far from easy, though, since the Space beyond the Crystal Spheres is Cold and utterly devoid of air to breathe. Also, the distances between planets are incredibly far, and since the Void is featureless beyond the different Planets and Stars in it, you can't depend on your normal skills of navigation. And who knows what other dangers the depths of wildspace contain?

Beyond that, maybe a great planar scholar might be able to device an epic spell that can span cosmologies.

 

[Wolfspider]

Still, it's not for everyone: in particular, I'm wary of how the PC whose player has a doctorate in Physics will react when she realises that the planet does not orbit a sun, but the other way round, or that there's a crystal sphere cutting the system off for a flammable soup outside...

What? The scientific-minded player has no problem with wizards flinging fireballs or changing shapes or dragons being able to breath fire and fly but will somehow find the idea of crystal sphere too unrealistic?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

What? The scientific-minded player has no problem with wizards flinging fireballs or changing shapes or dragons being able to breath fire and fly but will somehow find the idea of crystal sphere too unrealistic?

Yeah. Those scientific-minded players are weird that way. Personally, we usually just call them heretics and torture them to death. Then we take their stuff.


If I remember correctly, the FRCS talks about things beyond Toril. They call space "The Sea of Night", where they talk about other planets in Toril's solar system. I think that part says that Toril orbits the sun.

Of course, Toril is also Chauntea, its moon also Selûne, and the sun is actually a big piece of rock set afire by the goddess Selûne via a connection to the elemental plane of fire to warm the planet.

Because we're talking about fantasy here, I'd say that both things are true at once!