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D&D 5E Current take on GWM/SS

Your preferred solution(s)?

  • Rewrite the feat: replace the -5/+10 part with +1 Str/Dex

    Votes: 22 13.6%
  • Rewrite the feat: change -5/+10 into -5/+5

    Votes: 8 4.9%
  • Rewrite the feat: change -5/+10 into -5/+8

    Votes: 2 1.2%
  • Rewrite the feat: you can do -5/+10, but once per turn only

    Votes: 33 20.4%
  • The problem isn't that bad; use the feats as-is

    Votes: 78 48.1%
  • Ban the two GWM/SS feats, but allow other feats

    Votes: 6 3.7%
  • Play without feats (they're optional after all)

    Votes: 11 6.8%
  • Other (please specify)

    Votes: 24 14.8%

  • Poll closed .

Ashkelon

First Post
Honest question, how do you balance the party with two barbarians, one who chooses GWM and the other who doesn't. Maybe one doesn't want to deal with the complexity of feats. The one who chooses that feat deals about 40% more DPR than the one who doesn't.

That is a fairly noticeable difference. How can you build encounters balanced for the 23 DPR barb that are also balanced for the 35 DPR GWM barb? How do both get similar spotlight in combat? It seems like a single fest shouldn't increase DPR to that degree, right?
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I didn't think that was the complaint. I thought the complaint was that it causes spotlight imbalance between team members (eg duelist and two-weapon types tend to be overshadowed by archers and great-weapon types).

And I always saw this as a silly complaint unless you are a two-weapon type. Duelists, shield users, and pikeman aren't damage builds. They help the party in other ways than damage. I'm not expecting the sword and board user to kill all the goblins.

It all goes to what complaint the person has, which describes the solution.

If the complaint is that the feats lets the SS/GWM user vastly outdamage an non-damage focused build....
The solution is for the player to make a damage build and/or the DM in emphasize the nondamage aspects of the game. Nondamage characters have benefits elsewhere and nerfing the feat or buff the nondamage build causes imbalnce if those other areas appear.​

If the complaint is that the feats les the SS/GWM user vastly outdamage a damage focused build....
Then nerf the feats or buff the feats of those other damage builds​


If the complaint is that the feats lets the SS/GWM user, a bless-bot, and support PC breeze through the game via powergaming....
Then the DM should gowergame as well using the DMG guidelines​


If the complaint is that the feats lets the SS/GWM user, a bless-bot, and support PC breeze through the game via powergaming and even DM powergaming following the rules doesn't work....
Then change the feat. The designers have messed up.​
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Honest question, how do you balance the party with two barbarians, one who chooses GWM and the other who doesn't. Maybe one doesn't want to deal with the complexity of feats. The one who chooses that feat deals about 40% more DPR than the one who doesn't.

That is a fairly noticeable difference. How can you build encounters balanced for the 23 DPR barb that are also balanced for the 35 DPR GWM barb? How do both get similar spotlight in combat? It seems like a single fest shouldn't increase DPR to that degree, right?

Response.
What did the non GWM barbarian take instead?
Focus on that.
 



That is a fairly noticeable difference. How can you build encounters balanced for the 23 DPR barb that are also balanced for the 35 DPR GWM barb? How do both get similar spotlight in combat? It seems like a single fest shouldn't increase DPR to that degree, right?

It's really the Barbarian's Reckless Attack that is synergizing with GWM to shoot damage through the stratosphere. I'd go so far as to call GWM the Barbarian's iconic feat. Without it, Reckless Attack is kind of meh against all but the strongest foes given what it does to your defense.
 

DaveDash

Explorer
The player is choosing to do that though in a way that negatively impacts the game experience for others. That is the underlying problem that I see. I would wonder what's the next mechanic he or she would exploit after I changed this one. The behavior is what I see as problematic.

It has nothing to do with that.

There have been examples posted by users on this forum where groups have decided to wrap up campaigns and start again, because these feats in question ruined the enjoyment for the DM and other players.

There are no problem players in that instance because they all worked together to come to an outcome together, but there are problems with the game design which caused negative impressions for all involved on their first play-through of D&D 5e. So what if they don't approach the game the same way as you do? I don't think that many people do! The fact that *you* don't have an issue doesn't mean other people won't have issues - and that is a design flaw.
For the same reason Fighters can't shoot fireballs out their eyes at will because that would break core design assumptions in the game, these combinations do the same thing.

Not everyone *knows* everything about the game on character creation, they don't know all the rules, and the DM certainly isn't some rules god at every table knows how everything will play out 10+ levels from now.

The entire argument "Just do this" - "Just do that" as the DM also completely ignores the fact that many of us are very time poor DM's with kids and such, and don't really have the time or energy to modify ever single encounter to make up for a poor design decision in the game vs just house ruling the feats and being done with it.
 

Psikerlord#

Explorer
I didn't think that was the complaint. I thought the complaint was that it causes spotlight imbalance between team members (eg duelist and two-weapon types tend to be overshadowed by archers and great-weapon types).

My own view is that the debate around these feats shows the general flaw of the power attack mechanic. It is a purely mathematical trick that has no connection to the ingame fiction. The particular mathematical trick is the play on the fact that D&D uses both a to hit roll and a damage roll to determine the resolution of a declared attack.

Because it is a purely mathematical trick, it is prone to break down whenever the mathematics of the game falls outside the parameters that the designers had in mind in establishing the numerical trade-offs for the power-attack ability. And because huge swathes of D&D mechanics are all about tweaking those mathematics (ability score boosts, magic items, spells, etc) it turns out to be not that hard for that sort of break down to occur, particularly among players who pay attention to the maths. (That's not all of them, but it's not a negligible number, either, given that "paying attention to the maths" is a common trait among serious game players in general, a category that is over-represented among RPGers compared to humanity as a whole.)

It should be possible to define feats that serve the same function but aren't prone to mathematical breakdown. As I posted, it seems to me there are two main alternatives:
* If the point of the feat is a modest damage boost, change it to give one. That is what +1 to STR/DEX does. Another option is a flat +2 to damage.

* If the point of the feat is to give the player the thrill of occasional spike damage, redesign around that. The 1x/turn rationing is one approach, but perhaps not very thrilling because chosen by the player. Linking it to a particular natural attack roll (say, +5 to damage on an even attack roll that hits) might be better.

* If the feat is meant to involve a trade-off, make the trade-off something that does not operate in the same dimension of combat resolution as damage - eg to gain the damage bonus you have to take a -2 penalty to AC until the start of your next turn (the logic might be that a GWF is attacking more and defending less; a sharpshooter is taking more risks to aim the perfect shot).​

The suggested solution that players should just not use their PC abilities strikes me as unsatisfactory. I think an RPG should be designed so that player use of their PC abilities makes for a fun experience, not so that that players have to second guess whether or not actually deploying the game elements will make for good play.

I agree the basic mechanic is poor, and all your suggestions are better alternatives. I particularly like the 13th Age style bonus based on an even hit roll, I always found that fun in 13A. I also agree that the game should be designed so that you can choose any option and not break it (or at least, not without a very high level, complex, resource restricted combo).
 

Psikerlord#

Explorer
Honest question, how do you balance the party with two barbarians, one who chooses GWM and the other who doesn't. Maybe one doesn't want to deal with the complexity of feats. The one who chooses that feat deals about 40% more DPR than the one who doesn't.

That is a fairly noticeable difference. How can you build encounters balanced for the 23 DPR barb that are also balanced for the 35 DPR GWM barb? How do both get similar spotlight in combat? It seems like a single fest shouldn't increase DPR to that degree, right?
If you care about damage balance, you cannot balance them. Game over.
 

Ashkelon

First Post
If you care about damage balance, you cannot balance them. Game over.

Honestly, without GWM and SS, things are pretty well balanced. There is about a +/- 15% variance from the baseline for the most part. The fighter, barbarian, rogue, and paladin all deal fairly similar DPR across most levels of the game. But once you give one of them SS or GWM, the difference can only be made up by the others also taking the feat.
 

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