D&D 5E Current take on GWM/SS

[DaveDash]

I suggest you keep repeating it until you get it right.

Bless does *not* negate the SS/GWM penalty. It simply changes the attack bonus range.

If you need an 8 to hit, using SS gives you a -5 penalty and you need a 13.
Getting a 3 on Bless does not make it a -2 penalty. It means you could hit on a 5, but instead take a -5 penalty and need a 10.

In contrast, Sharpshooter negates a cover penalty. (while Archery Style does not.)

Again, tell me what experience you have playing with an SS + Crossbow Expert in your group? I'd like to know why you're convinced there's no possible scenario in which these feats could ever pose a problem.[/QUOTE] It is a very powerful combo...yet you keep saying that SS is the problem.[/QUOTE]

Is English not your first language because I never said what you claimed I said.

I've always ben adamant that taken in isolation each component is fine, which is why the maths fails unless you start factoring in common in game scenarios which join together to negate the -5.

I've ran with a Wolf Totem Barbarian so we hardly needed Bless, but it is the most common culprit to.enabling SS/CBX abuse.

 

[kerbarian]

In these scenarios where the damage gets completely out of control, Bless is not the problem. The -5/+10 from GWM or SS is the one piece that makes it all possible.

For example, take the level 11 case from the table I posted earlier. An 11th-level archer fighter shooting at a medium-AC target (AC 16) with Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, Bless, and Advantage deals an average of 67.3 damage per round, compared to baseline archer damage of 23.5. Almost triple the damage.

So of those four things stacked together to create massive damage (CE, SS, Bless, Adv), how much do they each contribute? One way to look at it is: If you remove any one element, how much of the extra damage goes away?

                      Damage  Decrease in extra damage
All bonuses            67.3       0%
All except Bless       60.4      16%
All except CE          53.5      32%
All except Advantage   50.7      38%
All except SS          35.0      74%
No bonuses             23.5     100%

The damage drops by a decent chunk when removing any of the elements, but Bless is clearly the least important contributor to the damage, and SS is by far the most important contributor. Without SS, about 3/4 of the extra damage goes away. And this is only considering the -5/+10 component of SS; it would be even larger if ignoring cover or range penalties came into play.

 

[DaveDash]

In these scenarios where the damage gets completely out of control, Bless is not the problem. The -5/+10 from GWM or SS is the one piece that makes it all possible.

For example, take the level 11 case from the table I posted earlier. An 11th-level archer fighter shooting at a medium-AC target (AC 16) with Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, Bless, and Advantage deals an average of 67.3 damage per round, compared to baseline archer damage of 23.5. Almost triple the damage.

So of those four things stacked together to create massive damage (CE, SS, Bless, Adv), how much do they each contribute? One way to look at it is: If you remove any one element, how much of the extra damage goes away?

                      Damage  Decrease in extra damage
All bonuses            67.3       0%
All except Bless       60.4      16%
All except CE          53.5      32%
All except Advantage   50.7      38%
All except SS          35.0      74%
No bonuses             23.5     100%

The damage drops by a decent chunk when removing any of the elements, but Bless is clearly the least important contributor to the damage, and SS is by far the most important contributor. Without SS, about 3/4 of the extra damage goes away. And this is only considering the -5/+10 component of SS; it would be even larger if ignoring cover or range penalties came into play.

Yes which proves you don't need Bless all the time.

Bless does contribute more though the higher the target AC and the less your attack bonus (level 8 vs level 11). At level 8 without Bless your damage with SS + EK against an AC20 target drops by 33%. Against AC 11 it only drops by 15%.

Players generally save Bless for the harder fights so they're doing optimal damage most of the time, which is why I've certainly seen 2:1 damage ratios in game using these feats - across the adventuring day.

 

[Psikerlord#]

True. But who is being overshadowed?
No one has answered that question from a opinion neutral standpoint.

There are no rogue damage feats as no feat grants a bonus to the source of rogue damage: Sneak attack. The second you allow feats, the rogue falls behind dramatically even before SS/GWM.
Sorcerers, warlocks, and evokers have AOE which only rangers have (EK aoe is pathetic). So they still have mobs combat and controlling.
And shield users and duelist are defensive.

The only issue is TWF warrior. But there not GWM or SS fault. That is because Dual Wielder stinks like an otyugh's breakfast.

The problem isn't GWM and SS. The problem is rogues don't have a feat and dual wielder mades green hags look attractive.



I agree. It's a math trick.


I do wish every feat ft all three pillars or were separated by pillar. But that is a pipe dream.
If the path to victory is killing, the nonkilling feats don't stand a chance.

The problem is only restricted to TWF if you use spotlight balance and shoehorn classes into definite roles (eg rogue skill monkey). If you want a rough damage balance - like the core rules come with (ie no MCing and no feats) - then everything becomes a problem with the +10. Those who use GMW and SS do too much damage, and those without it do too little. If my goal is to keep the rough damage balance the core rules provide, the best and most convenient fix is obvious.

 

[kerbarian]

[MENTION=6786202]DaveDash[/MENTION], which EK spells have made the EK Sharpshooter especially effective in your games? Shield is the obvious one, but beyond that... maybe Find Familiar (for Help), Blur, Magic Weapon (if magic hand crossbows aren't forthcoming), eventually Haste. But those are mostly useful if you can cast them before combat starts, and they all compete for the few non-Evocation-or-Abjuration slots.

So far I've been thinking of Battle Master as the most broken version of a Sharpshooter due to Precision Attack. But if you have a party that can help you with the attack bonuses, I can see how an EK would be significantly stronger on defense.

 

[DaveDash]

@DaveDash, which EK spells have made the EK Sharpshooter especially effective in your games? Shield is the obvious one, but beyond that... maybe Find Familiar (for Help), Blur, Magic Weapon (if magic hand crossbows aren't forthcoming), eventually Haste. But those are mostly useful if you can cast them before combat starts, and they all compete for the few non-Evocation-or-Abjuration slots.

So far I've been thinking of Battle Master as the most broken version of a Sharpshooter due to Precision Attack. But if you have a party that can help you with the attack bonuses, I can see how an EK would be significantly stronger on defense.

Battlemaster is good all the way through. I enjoy a non-Crossbow Expert Battlemaster with just sharpshooter. You can pick up resilient (Wisdom) since you don't need the crossbow expert feat. Some pros and cons compared to CBX since you can't really tank that well.

EK takes a bit to warm up but is pretty powerful mid game and very powerful late game. The ability to run haste + shield spells makes you really hard to hit in those difficult fights. Spells I enjoyed were Misty Step, Haste, Magic Weapon, and Shield. I didn't bother with Find Familiar but that's an interesting one. I did also drop the occasional fireball too.
If you end up with Foresight on you - like we did at high levels - you end up becoming an unstoppable force which laughs at the concept of Bounded Accuracy both offensively and defensively.

Another option I really enjoyed was a Battlemaster 11/Sorcerer x. You get more flexibility and better spell casting than the EK, but you do miss out on the very end game Fighter abilities. If you don't plan on going that high though, then I'd almost consider a Battlemaster/Draconic Sorcerer Sharpshooter superior to the EK.

 

[Celtavian]

True. But who is being overshadowed?
No one has answered that question from a opinion neutral standpoint.

There are no rogue damage feats as no feat grants a bonus to the source of rogue damage: Sneak attack. The second you allow feats, the rogue falls behind dramatically even before SS/GWM.
Sorcerers, warlocks, and evokers have AOE which only rangers have (EK aoe is pathetic). So they still have mobs combat and controlling.
And shield users and duelist are defensive.

The only issue is TWF warrior. But there not GWM or SS fault. That is because Dual Wielder stinks like an otyugh's breakfast.

The problem isn't GWM and SS. The problem is rogues don't have a feat and dual wielder mades green hags look attractive.



I agree. It's a math trick.


I do wish every feat ft all three pillars or were separated by pillar. But that is a pipe dream.
If the path to victory is killing, the nonkilling feats don't stand a chance.

I sort of like the Alertness and the one that gives +5 on passive Perception and Investigation. I hate getting surprised. Besides dragons, the closest fights are usually the ones where the party is surprised and hammer by casters and archers before they get to go.

 

[Celtavian]

There have been times where I have cast Holy Aura over bless but its 1/day. Depending on what Cleric you play Spirit Guardians can be great or not great. War Cleric? Great. Light Cleric? Not so great.

Bless is still the go to option.

If they didn't make Invoke Duplicity a concentration ability, spiritual guardians and Invoke Duplicity would be awesome. I still like Invoke Duplicity. It's an interesting way to go into an area and attack people without really being there.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

There's a poll at the top of this page that provides some helpful data on that score.

Sorry, but this poll is statistically worthless. Volunteer sample, narrow slice of the playerbase, terrible question structuring, the ability to see others' responses before making your own, the ability to change your response after you've made it...I'm sure there are other flaws, but that list alone is enough to make the data completely unreliable.

 

[Celtavian]

Sorry, but this poll is statistically worthless. Volunteer sample, narrow slice of the playerbase, terrible question structuring, the ability to see others' responses before making your own, the ability to change your response after you've made it...I'm sure there are other flaws, but that list alone is enough to make the data completely unreliable.

It did provoke fun discussion.