D&D 5E Current take on GWM/SS

[Minigiant]

To be fair, a beastmaster ranger gets unlimited serpent venom from a giant poisonous snake companion.

It is easily 5-10 poison damage per attack to everyone in the party. It makes GWM and SS look like junk.

Technically you can do with conjure animal but a DM can easily rule that the unconscious snake disappear or that you lose concentration when harvesting.

It's one of the most powerful beastmaaster builds outside of the gnome/halfling pony cavalier with a dual lances.

 

[KarinsDad]

100 dpr? fireball does on average 28 points, and is often going to hit 4+ targets. If he's the first to spot them, and they're a unit in formation, he can hit upwards of 20 of them... 3rd level spell.
Lightning bolt is less effective due to line instead of sphere, but also somewhat easier to avoid allies with, and can, if your buddies can line them up for you, hit 3+ per casting as well.
Stinking cloud
Ice Storm 2d8+4d6=average 23 damage, max 40, to a 20' radius.

Cantrips do double at this level...
Sorcerer: Fire bolt 2d10, empowered, averages 13.5 or so , quickened allows it twice, and it can be twinned each time so average damage for 2 rounds is 52 per round. Assuming a fire type matching, and the expected +5 Cha (because of Cha 16 base, +2 from race, +2 from 4th level attribute +2), this adds another 20 DPR... and a maximum of 100. Max of 50 DPR to single target.

let's see, fighter, GWM, +5 from STR/DEX, 2 attacks, and GWFS...
maximum damage including crits: 31 per attack without GWM. 41 per attack with it.
Average damage including crits: around 13 per attack, for 23 per attack with GWM....
but the average hit rate isn't so good. Bonus to hit is only +7 or so.

GWM doesn't cross your stated line. Spellcasters can, unless you don't ever allow your monsters to be closer than 20' apart.

Yes. And all of these things are limited resources, unlike GWM which can be done multiple times per round.

Can Fireball be cast multiple times per round every round each day?

The DPR of a spellcaster over the course of an adventuring day is usually a lot less than the DPR of a normal melee PC, let alone one using GWM. He was discussing DPR, not spike damage.

 

[KarinsDad]

To be fair, a beastmaster ranger gets unlimited serpent venom from a giant poisonous snake companion.

It's only unlimited if the DM allows it. This doesn't actually occur at many tables.

If using the guideline of basic poison, that would be 3 arrows per dose. I suspect many DMs would limit the poison from a companion to maybe 5 doses per day or so. Enough to boost the party for a single encounter (again, assuming the 1 minute duration of the poison for basic poison).

And, of course, using poison at the wrong time (or by certain PCs) has its own consequences (at least at many tables).

 

[KarinsDad]

First, to pick nits: That would cost 2,500 GP per shot (the prices are per dose) and -- unless the DM is very generous about how long PWV retains potency after it's applied -- would require either time for pre-combat buffing or would use up actions during combat to apply the poison, which would dramatically drop the effective DPR.

Possibly. The basic poison in the PHB lasts a minute and a single dose can do 3 pieces of ammunition. As a DM, I would be comfortable with these rules for all weapon applied poisons.

Problems with your scenario aside, it's highlighting exactly the same thing mine did: large damage bonuses are the key to massive damage combos. GWM and SS are by far the largest per-attack damage bonuses in the entire PHB, and so they're by far the most important components of enabling huge damage combos in the PHB.

Yup.

You've found another thing in the DMG with an even larger damage bonus, which (issues aside) stacks up in exactly the same way as GWM and SS only to a larger degree. Is your argument that because there's one thing in the entire DMG that would result in even more damage and which might be available to characters on a very limited basis, SS resulting in double damage every single combat isn't a balance problem?

Interesting question.

 

[KarinsDad]

Again though, focus fire is more useful than AoE. 28 damage to 4 targets is generally worse than 56 damage to a single target. This is because the spread out damage doesn't typically kill an enemy, while focus fire, especially if multiple characters do so, can kill an enemy. Killing enemies faster results in reduced total damage received.

AoE is great against nooks with low HP, and that is perfectly acceptable. But don't confuse the effect of the DPR caused by a fighter who can action surge for 100 damage to a single target at level 8 to that of s wizard who hits 5 targets for 20 expected damage each (after accounting for save for 1/2).

I agree with you that one cannot equate the two DPRs, but I think you are underestimating the effectiveness of hitting 5 targets for an average of 20 each.

Yes, the Fighter might do 100 DPR with a feat and buffs, but the Rogue is still doing 30 or 40 DPR. The Wizard is not doing as well as the Fighter (same DPR, but spread out damage), but most rounds, he is doing better with his Fireball than most of the rest of the PCs (in other words, his 20 DPR vs. 5 targets is second best damage for the round; and many rounds, best damage for the round).

That 20 DPR will often take out a foe that the Rogue or Ranger already heavily damaged (and not just a mook), or set up the Rogue or Ranger to finish off one of those foes (where the Rogue or Ranger would not have managed that on his own).

And for DMs that use some form of morale, damaging 5 foes and having the Fighter drop 1 might result in some of the foes fleeing. Most of this is not just calculations in a bubble, there are other variables as well.

 

[Minigiant]

It's only unlimited if the DM allows it. This doesn't actually occur at many tables.

If using the guideline of basic poison, that would be 3 arrows per dose. I suspect many DMs would limit the poison from a companion to maybe 5 doses per day or so. Enough to boost the party for a single encounter (again, assuming the 1 minute duration of the poison for basic poison).

And, of course, using poison at the wrong time (or by certain PCs) has its own consequences (at least at many tables).

The idea is to milk the venom during downtime. Then it becomes a question of how many vials you can milk and how many you can hold. A month of downtime could make a dungeon crawl a lot easier.

You don't see it as most people see beastmaster rangers as weak and never thought to do it. I spotted it on the first day of owning my DMG. It's powerful but beastmasters don't bring much else so and poison damage is low tier. Same with halfling ponyrangers

Makes GWM and SS look weak though.

 

[kerbarian]

I just noticed this, too. I decided to change my vote (adding +1 Str/Dex as a decent choice in addition to once per turn only). There were 143 voters, and then after I unvoted and revoted the total was down to 130. None of the votes that disappeared were ones that said "use the feats as-is" -- that number was 84 both before and after my revote (though its percentage jumped from 59% to 65% as the total voters decreased). I remember that percentage being below 50% a day or two ago.

I wonder if there's some bug with the voting system where unvoting removes more than just your own votes.

The poll is definitely broken and reporting a lower number of voters (and thus a higher percentage of votes for each category) than it should. I just confirmed the problem and reported it in this thread in Meta, with screenshots.

The reported number of voters is too low by at least 26, probably more since [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] saw the same thing. My guess is that the true number of voters is 180+ (could be over 200) and thus the percentage voting for "The problem isn't that bad" is closer to 50% than the currently-reported 70%.

I wouldn't want to rely on this type of poll for much anyway -- they're fun and interesting but others have pointed out their issues and biases. But for whatever the numbers are worth, it's worth knowing that the percentages being reported don't match the actual votes.

 

[CapnZapp]

It did provoke fun discussion.

My poll is certainly without statistical value, but it carries value for *me*.

Cheers!

 

[kerbarian]

Possibly. The basic poison in the PHB lasts a minute and a single dose can do 3 pieces of ammunition. As a DM, I would be comfortable with these rules for all weapon applied poisons.

Yeah, it's not spelled out clearly and is certainly up to the DM. My take was that a "dose" of poison is the amount you have to administer to a creature to have the stated effect, i.e. the real-world definition of a dose.

The basic poison in the PHB never talks about doses -- it's a "vial" of poison that can be used to apply its damage to multiple creatures, so I figure it must contain multiple doses.

 

[KarinsDad]

The idea is to milk the venom during downtime. Then it becomes a question of how many vials you can milk and how many you can hold. A month of downtime could make a dungeon crawl a lot easier.

You don't see it as most people see beastmaster rangers as weak and never thought to do it. I spotted it on the first day of owning my DMG. It's powerful but beastmasters don't bring much else so and poison damage is low tier. Same with halfling ponyrangers

Makes GWM and SS look weak though.

While this might be possible, many DMs will still limit its use. As DM, I would still limit poison applied to a weapon for a single minute (as per the poison kit in the PHB). So the PCs using it either have to get into combat right after applying it, or they have to use up an action in combat to apply it to their weapons. GWM and SS are always available.

Do your players ever get into a combat after roleplaying with the NPCs? It doesn't take much for a minute to disappear at the table. As DM, the PCs who put venom on their weapons before entering the Princess' chamber lost the potency after talking to the Princess' maid for a minute of real time.

Most encounters at my table, the PCs will have to use up a precious action in combat to apply the venom. The duration is just too short to reliably use it before an encounter.

The DM should also use the rules for milking the snake. There is a chance that the PC poisons himself. Not a big deal most of the time, but it could be problematic if the PC milks the snake on an adventuring day (or alternatively, the DM turns a day where the Ranger milked the snake and got poisoned into an encounter day).