Custom Monster: Slow Giant

[sfedi]

Ok, that may be fine for an elite or solo. It's way, way too powerful for a standard monster, however: an encounter with level+3 standard monsters equal in number to PC's should be surviveable. Here, however, the giants will simply pin down all PC's most of the time and reliably use the smash. The only thing PC's can then do is crawl (but that'll be almost impossible when slowed+dazed: a crawl would move just 1 square, and of course it gives up the standard action).

I see this happening if one Giant moves and Slaps a PC, then, others could move upto the PC and Raise Club.
That way, a single PC could get Smashed more than once for the "price" of a single Slap, which kind of improves a lot the DPR of the monsters.

This can also happen when these Giants fight along monsters that Immobilize.
But that seems a reasonable synergy.

As is, the slap is too powerful for a standard monster, particularly in conjunction with the very lethal smash because many giants can do this to the entire party. Basically, vs. standard monsters, PC's just don't have a choice but to stand ground. You just can't escape from all of em.

Did you see the DPR calculation before?
If no more than one Giant engage a PC, then these Giants are no more threatening than any other Brute of it's level.

Make him elite, and it's OK, though still very nasty.

Leaving it's Powers intact?

Putting the action into the hand's of the PC's is fun and is a reminder of the special OA rules. That's one reason why I prefer the action approach.

I don't think the difference will actually matter very often. The real threat is his big smash anyhow, letting PC's spend a minor action to prance around the enemy won't change that. If you feel this is too easy, then I'd make it a free action 1/round to avoid one OA - that leaves the initiative in the PC's hands (fun) but is more limited.

That's a good one. It even contrains the PCs to only avoid one Giant per round.
I think that ruling is better. Although it's something not very elegant from a design POV. A monster granting a PC a Power or Ability is kind of klunky.

How do you imagine melee characters will fight this giant?

As I mentioned before: you wait until the Giant comes to you, then, inyour turn, you hit him and move away.

Most melee characters simply don't have the option to do hit+run tactics;

That's why I don't want to grant the Giant normal OAs.

they need to either start or end adjacent to the giant.

Yes. In this case I want to discourage the second part: ending adjacent.

Such characters shouldn't be useless in combat. Readied actions are reactions; you can't (normally) ready knowing which way a monster will strike.

Well, in this case they CAN know.
But now that I think of it, that's not clean enough.

Maybe that should be a focus first anyhow: how should the battle turn out, eventually? Then you can design the monster around that. As a matter of preference, I think it's better not to rely on readied actions anyhow, they slow down combat and initiative tracking when overused.

Yes, you're right.
But note that I'm not relying on CA for this monster to be defeated.
It's merely an option for some characters.

So: what kind of tactics should a bog-standard fighter or paladin use against this monster? That storyboard should guide monster-design.

I like what you propose here.

As I mentioned before, the idea is twofold:
- You don't want to be adjacent to this guy when it's turn comes up
- Tension: there should be a moment when everyone knows who's going to take a huge hit, and with proper Powers, they could make him escape this. As a reward, the Giant looses it's turn (looses his Standard in this case)

 

[sfedi]

A little adjustment that makes the monster easier to understand, but keep it as functional as the first posted.

Slow Giant Level 1 Brute
Large natural humanoid XP 100

Initiative –1 Senses Perception +6
HP 46; Bloodied 23
AC 13; Fortitude 14; Reflex 12; Will 13
Speed 6

Slap (standard; at-will)
Quickest attack that it can make
Reach 2; +4 vs AC; 4 and the target is prone, dazed and slowed until the end of Slow Giant's next turn

Raise Club (move; at-will)
After this action the next action Slow Giant must take is a Smash. Slow Giant's grants Combat Advantage until Smash is used.

Smash (standard; at-will)
Special: Raise Club must be the preceding action to this one.
Reach 2; +4 vs AC; 3d8 + 6 Miss: Half damage

Slow Reflexes (no action; at-will)
Slow Giant can't take an Opportunity Attack from the first square an enemy leaves.

Alignment Unaligned Languages Giant
Skills Endurance +10, Nature +6
Str 20 (+5) Dex 8 (–1) Wis 12 (+1)
Con 20 (+5) Int 8 (–1) Cha 8 (–1)
Equipment Club, Hide Armor

 

[sfedi]

I think this is why I favor the standard action recharging version of Smash. It is RISKY for a fighter say to run up and start whacking on Slow Giant, but its not a tactic that is guaranteed to fail.

Sure, but that's against two design constraints:
- build tension
- standing adjacent to the Slow Giant shouldn't be a viable tactic

One thing is to risk yourself into having the Smash recharged, and another one is to KNOW that it is coming.

I can see the fighter running up, drawing the Smash, and then the other melee characters darting in, dropping their best powers on Slow Giant, and then next round they all scramble away again. If they get unlucky one of them gets beaned a second time. The tension IMHO is still there. If you think about it the two-stage Smash plus Slap isn't REALLY all that different. The PC just has to luck out and not get hit with the Slap, vs lucking out that the Smash doesn't recharge right away.

But how are the other combatants guaranteed that they will not get Smashed?
How can anyone avoid been Smashed the first time?

I'm not picturing the scenario you are describing here. Could I bother you with a more detailed example?

As for the lack of OA. As I said before, Slow Giant can always have a secondary attack that can be an MBA so he can punish someone if he corners them. It could be a reaction or a standard action. It could even be something like a power that only works when Smash is NOT available.

That cuold, work, I should have to see it in action though.

I also agree that the monster really doesn't work well as an ordinary monster. However I think its not a big deal in that the Smash mechanics are the real nut of the thing to work out. Once that's in place the rest of the stat block can be built around it.

Completely agree.

Another possibility would be an action based recharge. Slow Giant can either move or recharge its Smash power. I think this just feels a bit less mechanically divergent from the way monsters typically work than the original version.

Mmm, that's a good one.

For example, what would happen if the Slow Giant only had these two Powers?

Slow Giant Level 1 Brute
Large natural humanoid XP 100

Initiative –1 Senses Perception +6
HP 46; Bloodied 23
AC 13; Fortitude 14; Reflex 12; Will 13
Speed 6

Smash (standard; Encounter)
Reach 2; +4 vs AC; 3d8 + 6 Miss: Half damage

Raise Club (move; at-will)
Slow Giant's recharges Smash.

Alignment Unaligned Languages Giant
Skills Endurance +10, Nature +6
Str 20 (+5) Dex 8 (–1) Wis 12 (+1)
Con 20 (+5) Int 8 (–1) Cha 8 (–1)
Equipment Club, Hide Armor

This is EXTREMELY simple, and has a lot of subtle things going on.

Like the basic melee attack that is an Encounter power.
If he has it available, then he can make OAs and charge. If not, he can't.

A problem I see, though, is that the Slow Giant could simply move-recharge and then charge.

But that is easily fixed by making Smash not a Basic attack. This would effectively remove any chance of making an OA.

 

[sfedi]

I made some mock combats and this last modification seems to work nicely.

It definetly works better if Smash is not a Basic Attack, it's easier to run and it's less boring.

Now, keeping in line with the simplicity we have, I've added an encounter power:

Slow Giant Level 1 Brute
Large natural humanoid XP 100

Initiative –1 Senses Perception +6
HP 46; Bloodied 23
AC 13; Fortitude 14; Reflex 12; Will 13
Speed 6

Smash (standard; encounter)
Reach 2; +4 vs AC; 3d8 + 6 Miss: Half damage

Raise Club (move; at-will)
Slow Giant recharges Smash.

I'm angry (minor; encounter)
Slow Giant recharges Smash

Alignment Unaligned Languages Giant
Skills Endurance +10, Nature +6
Str 20 (+5) Dex 8 (–1) Wis 12 (+1)
Con 20 (+5) Int 8 (–1) Cha 8 (–1)
Equipment Club, Hide Armor

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I made some mock combats and this last modification seems to work nicely.

It definetly works better if Smash is not a Basic Attack, it's easier to run and it's less boring.

Now, keeping in line with the simplicity we have, I've added an encounter power:

Slow Giant Level 1 Brute
Large natural humanoid XP 100

Initiative –1 Senses Perception +6
HP 46; Bloodied 23
AC 13; Fortitude 14; Reflex 12; Will 13
Speed 6

Smash (standard; encounter)
Reach 2; +4 vs AC; 3d8 + 6 Miss: Half damage

Raise Club (move; at-will)
Slow Giant recharges Smash.

I'm angry (minor; encounter)
Slow Giant recharges Smash

Alignment Unaligned Languages Giant
Skills Endurance +10, Nature +6
Str 20 (+5) Dex 8 (–1) Wis 12 (+1)
Con 20 (+5) Int 8 (–1) Cha 8 (–1)
Equipment Club, Hide Armor

I like it. Seems pretty cool. It is a monster that will definitely take some tactical thought to beat without getting the party mauled, and it looks fairly simple to run. It will be a pretty swingy combat (smashy combat?). It will work fine though if its used in the right context. Maybe an encounter while a party is somewhat time constrained. If they do things right they can win without taking much damage, but if they mess up they're almost bound to have to take an extended rest and suffer whatever the story consequences are. Or a number of Slow Giants could just be arranged as a combat designed to be the only encounter of the day. Mess up really bad and someone could get killed, otherwise you beat the SGs and go lick your wounds.

 

[sfedi]

One thing that is important, I think, is that PCs should be aware, when they see the Slow Giant in combat, that he can't make OAs because he is extremely low attacking.

This is something they must know from the get go in order for this monster to work.

Another thing to be aware is that this monster has an extremely good synergy with Immoblizing (and grabbing and restraining) monsters. The same applies to Soldiers in general.
Think carefully before mixing these monsters.

Dazing monster though, are fine, they impose a heavy penalty on PCs facing the Slow Giant(s).

If you want to make it an Elite, it's very simple: Raise Club should be minor-at will.
It's boring, but it works and it's quick.

The other way to make him Elite (always doubling it's HPs and adding APs, save bonuses, of course) is to double the damage his Smash does.

But it may become too swingy (it's already a swingy monster, as AbdulAlhazred already pointed out)

In any case, making this monster Elite should entail more work to keep it interesting.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Personally I would just make the existing version Elite from the get-go. It already does plenty of damage though in a bit of a limited fashion. It could have an additional modest power to up its action economy a bit. Maybe something like a trample that damages any character it walks over (it is Huge, right, so it can just stomp right on through your space, well if not that's easy enough to fix). That would give it a bit of steady damage output. If it were higher level I'd also consider something like a minor action power. It could perhaps also have an "on bloodied automatically gets to use raise club" or something like that.

Yeah, its going to be REALLY dangerous in concert with something like ghouls etc. Obviously a combo to avoid unless you really want to punish your party

 

[sfedi]

Personally I would just make the existing version Elite from the get-go.

Yes, as I said before, a little more work should be donde to do this.

But now that you brought it up, let's take a shot at it.

It already does plenty of damage though in a bit of a limited fashion. It could have an additional modest power to up its action economy a bit. Maybe something like a trample that damages any character it walks over (it is Huge, right, so it can just stomp right on through your space, well if not that's easy enough to fix). That would give it a bit of steady damage output.

I love that idea.
(Note: it's Large, not Huge)

What do you think of adding this?

Trample (standard; at-will)
The Slow Giant can move up to its speed and enter enemies’ spaces. The Slow Giant must end its move in an unoccupied space. When it enters an enemy’s space, the Slow Giant makes a trample attack:; +2 vs Reflex; 1d8+3 damage, and the target is knocked prone.

This is a standard Trample attack power.

I don't like much that he provokes AOs (because it's a move).
Because it kind of breaks the action economy.

I mean: With this Standard, he should get the equivalent of two attacks, to compensate he is an Elite.
But... for every attack he gets, he grants an OA.

This is potentially worse than two attacks (a Fighter that ends his move),
but it's also potentially better than two attacks (attacking three weak OAs party members, say: a Rogue, a Wizard and a Cleric).

In any case, if he manages to knock someone prone, he's almost guaranteed to either make the enemy loose it's turn (he stands up and move away) or he get's Smashed (equivalent to two attacks).

All in all, I think this is fine, it should work out.

If it were higher level I'd also consider something like a minor action power. It could perhaps also have an "on bloodied automatically gets to use raise club" or something like that.

Why do you feel that at higher levels it should need that?

Yeah, its going to be REALLY dangerous in concert with something like ghouls etc. Obviously a combo to avoid unless you really want to punish your party

Exactly.

 

[sfedi]

Elite Brute, Level 10

Here it is as an Elite, and Level 10:

Slow Giant Level 10 Elite Brute
Large natural humanoid XP 1.000

Initiative +6 Senses Perception +13
HP 310; Bloodied 155
AC 22; Fortitude 23; Reflex 21; Will 22
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6
Action Points 1

Smash (standard; encounter)
Reach 2; +13 vs AC; 4d10 + 8 Miss: Half damage

Raise Club (move; at-will)
Slow Giant recharges Smash.

I'm angry (minor; encounter)
Slow Giant recharges Smash

Trample (standard; at-will)
The Slow Giant can move up to its speed and enter enemies’ spaces. The Slow Giant must end its move in an unoccupied space. When it enters an enemy’s space, the Slow Giant makes a trample attack; +11 vs Reflex; 1d10 + 5 damage, and the target is knocked prone

Alignment Unaligned Languages Giant
Skills Endurance +17, Nature +13
Str 25 (+12) Dex 13 (+6) Wis 17 (+8)
Con 25 (+12) Int 13 (+6) Cha 13 (+6)
Equipment Club, Hide Armor