Custom Spells (Revised 7-18-2006)

[Rystil Arden]

I'm not saying that Undead aren't vulnerable to such a spell, but it's not like wizards in general aren't vulnerable to Fortitude saves even at high level. Just because its their weakness doesn't mean there shouldn't be things that target that weakness, particularly when it can be overcome in other ways.

There's a difference, though. Because the thing is, that 7th-level Wizard fighting the Nightcrawler may very well have +10 to Fort saves, two less than the 25 HD CR 18 undead, which can be accounted for by the fact that Nightcrawler only has +12 due to the Great Fortitude feat (assuming the Wizard has a Fort familiar, 16 Con base, and items). The key is that undead are always going to be screwed because they don't ever get to add a stat to the save *and* it's a weak save.

 

[Ferrix]

There's a difference, though. Because the thing is, that 7th-level Wizard fighting the Nightcrawler may very well have +10 to Fort saves, two less than the 25 HD CR 18 undead, which can be accounted for by the fact that Nightcrawler only has +12 due to the Great Fortitude feat (assuming the Wizard has a Fort familiar, 16 Con base, and items). The key is that undead are always going to be screwed because they don't ever get to add a stat to the save *and* it's a weak save.

A wizard with a 16 Con base, items and a Fort familiar is a wizard built for a strong Fort save. Just because undead have particular vulnerabilities to very specific things doesn't mean those things should be changed to compensate for the undeads vulnerabilities.

 

[IcyCool]

Ok, so here are some thoughts on changes.

1. Change to a will save.
2. Remove the -4 penalty for undead and leave it as a Fort save (the undead are penalized by not having a con score).


Also there are some notable differences between this power and Control Body.

1. Bone Puppet lasts for 1 round/level as opposed to Control Body at 1 minute/level.
2. Bone Puppet only allows a single standard or move action in a round.
3. Bone Puppet requires a new save each round.
4. Bone Puppet works on any creature with a skeletal structure (which appears to be mostly DM discretion) regardless of size or shape. Control body only works on humanoid targets, and must be augmented to work on larger targets.

And to those discussing the 20th level Lich, wouldn't Globe of Invulnerability work on this spell?

 

[Rystil Arden]

A wizard with a 16 Con base, items and a Fort familiar is a wizard built for a strong Fort save. Just because undead have particular vulnerabilities to very specific things doesn't mean those things should be changed to compensate for the undeads vulnerabilities.

Undead are balanced, however, based on the fact that they are immune to most Fortitude saves. In the core rules, the only real contender for trouble is Disintegrate, and that at least allows hit points as a secondary defense mechanism. I contend that we shouldn't be adding more of the things they can't defend against.

The 7th-level Wizard could be built for Fort saves--there's little better to do with the Familiar ability, after all, except maybe pump Reflex saves, but that's debatable, and raising Con is the norm for a Wizard right after Int because their HD is unplayably low in general without a Con bonus. So the Wizard might only have 14 Con, but he's certainly competitive at level 7 (or level 6) with a CR 18 undead.

 

[Rystil Arden]

And to those discussing the 20th level Lich, wouldn't Globe of Invulnerability work on this spell?

Yeah, a spellcaster probably isn't the best example--let's look at the Nightcrawler instead.

 

[Ferrix]

Ok, so here are some thoughts on changes.

1. Change to a will save.
2. Remove the -4 penalty for undead and leave it as a Fort save (the undead are penalized by not having a con score).


Also there are some notable differences between this power and Control Body.

1. Bone Puppet lasts for 1 round/level as opposed to Control Body at 1 minute/level.
2. Bone Puppet only allows a single standard or move action in a round.
3. Bone Puppet requires a new save each round.
4. Bone Puppet works on any creature with a skeletal structure (which appears to be mostly DM discretion) regardless of size or shape. Control body only works on humanoid targets, and must be augmented to work on larger targets.

And to those discussing the 20th level Lich, wouldn't Globe of Invulnerability work on this spell?

I believe these notable differences, excepting #4, are greater limitations to the spell compared to Control Body, and if we remove the -4 penalty that Undead suffer and leave it as a Fortitude save, it serves the purpose it should and is balanced compared to Control Body.

The only limitation Control Body has is that it is a humanoid shape (including undead and outsiders) and that you have to augment it to control larger targets.

 

[IcyCool]

So, are either of the two changes I proposed acceptable, or are there further concerns?

 

[Ferrix]

So, are either of the two changes I proposed acceptable, or are there further concerns?

I will vote yes to the 2nd option as it is then on par with Control Body as a 4th level spell.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I will vote yes to the 1st option as written or to the 2nd option if it also allows the undead to use their Charisma bonus as a bonus to the Fort save (they are already penalised by having a weak Fortitude save, and they generally don't have stellar Charisma anyways).

 

[IcyCool]

I will vote yes to the 1st option as written or to the 2nd option if it also allows the undead to use their Charisma bonus as a bonus to the Fort save (they are already penalised by having a weak Fortitude save, and they generally don't have stellar Charisma anyways).

I'd have no problem with that, but out of curiousity, would you make the same change to Control Body?