Customer Service on Divine Challenge

[Danceofmasks]

Dragons can fly.
Therefore, they ought to kill anything that can hurt it at range, first.
Marked or not.

Then they can fly off, making DC wear off, coming back to breathe, and repeat.

 

[Bison]

Ok here is another perhaps silly question about DC. as I read the description it says nothing with regard to what happens when the target that is marked is killed. consider this scenario:

a paladin challenges an ogre and attacks in round one.
a ranger ally moves into flanking position behind the ogre and scores a critical hit and kills the ogre.

when the paladins initiative comes up on round two, there has been no action that has ended the mark. so does that mean that if the paladin does not mark a new target or end his turn next to the dead ogre that he cant use DC on his next turn? (this could be problamatic if there were no other enemies in range this turn, and the paladin needed to double move to get near another target)

or would it make more sence to just say that once the target dies the mark ends and the paladin is free to make another DC without any restriction?

 

[jdpacheco]

Ok here is another perhaps silly question about DC. as I read the description it says nothing with regard to what happens when the target that is marked is killed. consider this scenario:

a paladin challenges an ogre and attacks in round one.
a ranger ally moves into flanking position behind the ogre and scores a critical hit and kills the ogre.

when the paladins initiative comes up on round two, there has been no action that has ended the mark. so does that mean that if the paladin does not mark a new target or end his turn next to the dead ogre that he cant use DC on his next turn? (this could be problamatic if there were no other enemies in range this turn, and the paladin needed to double move to get near another target)

or would it make more sence to just say that once the target dies the mark ends and the paladin is free to make another DC without any restriction?

Could you repeat your question in a way that makes sense?

If I'm reading you correctly: Um... No. Sorry. I just tried, and brain froze up...

DC doesn't work unless the Pally makes a mark... Otherwise he would have to stay next to the dead ogre, or at least attack it, in order for the mark to stick, and for the damage to be done should the dead ogre decide to attack someone other than the Pally...

I'm still trying to get my head around your question, especially as there's no reason for the Pally to not mark some other creature....

 

[Audrik]

I THINK he's asking if the mark is removed upon the death of the target.

 

[jdpacheco]

I THINK he's asking if the mark is removed upon the death of the target.

I have a feeling you're correct, but I fail to see how it would matter if it did or didn't.

The marked condition just means that it takes a -2 to attacks that don't include the Pally (moot: can't attack, so penalties don't seem that they'd bother it much).

The other side effects of DC would also be limited to when the target of DC attacks someone other then the Pally, which, as I've mentioned, will be moot.

The Paladin will have to use the Minor action to DC another target in order to get any benefit from DC. The DC doesn't "transfer" to the next available target, and presence of DC on the dead target seems a bit silly since it won't be attacking anyone other than the Pally anyway.

 

[jdpacheco]

There are no penalties. If the target can't attack the paladin because the paladin run away, turned invisible, etc, it just attacks anybody else normally. The power simply fails.


Which is, in the end, the same thing.
Are you really saying that magically damaging an enemy that doesn't attack the paladin is not forcing him to attack the paladin?
Of course it is. It's an over-complicated taunt machanic, made that way to not look like a taunt mechanic. But the whole point behind the power is to make the monsters attack the paladin instead of his allies.
I have no problems with taunt mechanics, but please, keep them simple.

This also forces the target of DC to attack. There are other options. Perhaps it's a leader unit, and they're going to use their turn to retreat, and then buff their group. DC leaves this option open to them, which may be a wiser choice for them, but the "YOU MUST ATTACK ME!" does not.

I like DC the way it is, and I like the fighter mechanics for roughly the same thing. They actually leave tactics open for the opponent. "Must Attack" doesn't really work for me, sorry.

 

[Bison]

I have a feeling you're correct, but I fail to see how it would matter if it did or didn't.

The marked condition just means that it takes a -2 to attacks that don't include the Pally (moot: can't attack, so penalties don't seem that they'd bother it much).

The other side effects of DC would also be limited to when the target of DC attacks someone other then the Pally, which, as I've mentioned, will be moot.

The Paladin will have to use the Minor action to DC another target in order to get any benefit from DC. The DC doesn't "transfer" to the next available target, and presence of DC on the dead target seems a bit silly since it won't be attacking anyone other than the Pally anyway.

I'm sorry if my quetion wasn't clear. The point of contention was that in effect in that scenario, the paladin will loose a round where he is able to issue the divine challenge. If the ogre is dead and he then moves away from the ogre, the paladin is not meeting the test that he must either engage the target or end his turn adjacent to it.

The penalty for not meeting those conditions is that on the next round the paladin is not able to issue a new divine challenge. Not an earth shattering penalty, but just confused as to how it would work.

 

[garyh]

I'm sorry if my quetion wasn't clear. The point of contention was that in effect in that scenario, the paladin will loose a round where he is able to issue the divine challenge. If the ogre is dead and he then moves away from the ogre, the paladin is not meeting the test that he must either engage the target or end his turn adjacent to it.

The penalty for not meeting those conditions is that on the next round the paladin is not able to issue a new divine challenge. Not an earth shattering penalty, but just confused as to how it would work.

I'd think it's just common sense that once a foe is dead you no longer have to engage it. Could it have been spelled out? Sure. But I still think it's the most logical conclusion.

 

[jdpacheco]

I'm sorry if my quetion wasn't clear. The point of contention was that in effect in that scenario, the paladin will loose a round where he is able to issue the divine challenge. If the ogre is dead and he then moves away from the ogre, the paladin is not meeting the test that he must either engage the target or end his turn adjacent to it.

The penalty for not meeting those conditions is that on the next round the paladin is not able to issue a new divine challenge. Not an earth shattering penalty, but just confused as to how it would work.

You would Challenge a new target, thereby avoiding the issue of what happens if you don't engage the target or challenge a new opponent.

Though, honestly, as DM, I'd probably say "It's ok that your target died, you don't have to use it again this round..." in which case it about amounts to not being able to use it for a round... Which I think is the intent. Basically: You must either engage the target, issue a new challenge, or lose its use for a round...