Customized monsters and adjusting CR

[Infiniti2000]

I can't imagine you like words being put in your mouth, but I'd like that question answered...

So would you say that the line between changing CR and not lies between substitution and addition?

As a general answer, yes. There is some addition of abilities that would neither change CR nor EL, but on the whole some addition would increase CR/EL. Very rarely, IMO, would I ever change CR/EL based on the substitution of some abilities. If I were to ever swap out racial HD for more powerful class levels, an increase in CR (not EL) would definitely be appropriate. However, instead of that kind of swapping I would much rather just devise a new type of monster from the ground up. It'd be easier to both do and understand.

Not actually; I'm not pursuing an agenda here, man. I asked a question and felt chastized for doing so. I don't particularly care to rebut because I asked a question when I didn't know the answer (Novel!). Thanks for setting me straight.

Neither am I and your perception of some sort of antagonizing nature in my posts is a misunderstanding. I'm not trying to set anyone straight nor force any sort of opinion on anyone. I was merely attempting to respond truthfully, and as you noted, in generalities because I quite honestly thought that was what you were looking for.

 

[eamon]

There's no easy answer to adjudicating CR changes. In general I too don't distinguish between EL and CR, and I also ballpark pretty heavily. I'd like to add another category which is a major factor, by the way; and that's wealth: better equipment makes even more difference to NPC's than to PC's, since they generally have less to spend in the first place.

The only thing I don't consider when judging CR/EL is the strengths/weaknesses of a particular monster/NPC wrt the specific party. It's the party's responsibility to make sure they don't have glaring weaknesses (or are attentive and quick to run if they risk being exploited), and it's the party's gain if they happen to be well-optimized for a particular monster.

The MM guidelines aren't very good by themselves, so you'll need to eyeball if you want to be reasonable. It's too easy to make an underpowered or overpowered monster by advancing it otherwise. I use the guidelines as a starting point, no more. A 9th level NPC (5 fighter/4 rogue) with subpar equipment? That's CR6, and in retrospect, less. A storm giant monk 1 grappler with monk-esque feats, the elite array and NPC-level equipment? Not exactly CR 14.

 

[irdeggman]

What's irrational about it?

I get that by adding even just a bonus feat, you are increasing the sum total of abilities by one feat, whereas by swapping feats, the number of feats remains the same. And some feats are more powerful than others, right? So how is swapping Toughness for Spring Attack less of a change than adding Skill Focus: Appraise?

Well look at it from this way.

Does a 1st level fighter with: weapon focus: great axe and power attack have a different CR than one with endurance and skill focus: perform singing?

The answer per the books is no they are exaclty the same CR.

Now would they provide the same EL in an encounter?

In a combat encounter no they wouldn't, in an interaction encounter they wouldn't (going the other way) - which is why EL is circumstantial and is used to modify the xp awarded by such an encounter. But the bottom line is that both have the same CR.

So which feats (and skills) are chosen does not affect a character's CR although they could modify the EL of the encounter.

Same logic applies to stating up monsters. . . .