Cutting Back the Power Level

[FEADIN]

We never played (almost) with point buy, I run The Shackled city campaign and I can tell you that 18 or not 18 is no big question, there are enconters so tough that even with 6x18 you can't survive if you don't thing twice (thrice), even with my 6 to 8 players.
There is 3 dead yet.

 

[Thanatos]

nothing to see here.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I use 42 points for point buy in my games which is equal to 6 14s.

Um. . . isn't it actually equal to 3 15s and 3 14s? Wouldn't 36pb be equal to all 14s (i.e., 6 points x 6 abilities = 36). . . ?

Re: Land Outcast's system.. I also use a total of modifiers for generation (usually, anyway). 12 is only for the absolute highest full-on uber stuff however. Low level is more like 6, and other things in between. Generally speaking.

 

[Quartz]

Your PCs don't need to start with an 18 - 16 is fine. Try using a number line (e.g. {11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16}) instead of a point buy, and mandate that if they're playing a non-human, they can't add to the 15 or 16.

 

[Blackwind]

Just because so many DM's think that 22-28 point buy characters are "just fine" doesn't mean everyone holds that opinion. Not all players find the idea of being so limited or so restricted with how stats are generated and having average-statted characters very interesting, heroic or fun. <snip>

And then the thought of "punishing" them with even lower point buys so they are grateful for 28? ugh...that kinda stuff would turn me off of playing with that DM. The whole idea that stats have to be mediocre make the game more challenging and fun is just as misguided as the thought that uber-high stats are required to have fun. <snip snip>

I wouldn't say that 22-28 pt. characters are "average." Standard point buy is 25, which is roughly equivalent to the "elite array" (i.e. above average) or rolling (which generates PCs who are still above average - that is, compared to everyone who is NOT a PC).

A 22 pt. character is below average *for a PC.* 28 pts. is slightly better than average (listed in the DMG as appropriate for a "tougher" campaign. 32 pts. are recommended for a "high-powered" campaign.

My point here is that 25 pt. buy does not generate characters who are "average" or "mediocre." It generates characters who are "elite" and have higher stats than all the other kids in town. As a side note, I had players roll for stats (standard 4d6) in my current campaign and a couple of them were below 25 pts. Are these characters mediocre? No. They are PCs, and far more powerful than the average person in the world. They kick butt and take names.

The OP's intention was not to "punish" his players, but to balance his game such that the PCs' stats were appropriate for the campaign he is running (Shackled City). To me, limiting PCs to 25 pt. buy sounds a lot easier than scaling up every encounter in a huge published campaign. YMMV.

 

[BlueBlackRed]

In my next campaign, I've decided that even a 28 point buy is plenty, I want to kind of prove that high stats don't always make the PC (they just make things easier), and like the OP I want to start off a little low powered.

But since I like using dice for stat generation, I'm going to allow the players 3 options:
1) Roll 4d6 6 times, drop the lowest, in front of me, one total time. If you don't like the results
2) Standard point array +1. Meaning you get the six following scores placed however you want and then you can add 1 to any one of them: 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15
3) And if you don't like being limited to those specific number, then do a standard 25 point buy.

It's the best middle-ground I could come up with.

 

[Benimoto]

I've also had players who cringe at basically any stat generation, short of "roll 4d6 until you're happy with your stats". I don't have a huge problem with that, but it does seem to lead to issues with the game balance.

The main issues I have with high stat characters are:

1) High stats take away some of the specialist classes strength. High Con on the whole party makes a high hit die less important. High Int on anyone who wants it makes a classes skill points less important. High Str on guys like a cleric make fighter BAB less important.
2) Following up on the skill points thing, I've noticed that my characters with high stats tend to qualifiy for a lot of different prestige classes, and then hop between them rapidly as they gain levels.
3) More capable characters mean they'll burn through ELs of monsters and challenges quicker, gaining levels faster, and making the whole campaign shorter.

All of those could be seen as positive things in a campaign by certain groups or players. I just know that I'm a little tired of the superheroic campaigns. High level characters are heroic enough without having to have superhuman stats. I think that I'll be trying 25 or 28 point buy in my next campaign. I play lots of con games with those stats and they're perfectly playable.

 

[Dagger of Lath]

Just because so many DM's think that 22-28 point buy characters are "just fine" doesn't mean everyone holds that opinion.

Wow, my term "just fine" has suddenly become a ringing endorsement. Thank god I didn't say sufficient or adequate. Plus, while I am a DM, I happen to be a player in the 22 game.

Not all players find the idea of being so limited or so restricted with how stats are generated and having average-statted characters very interesting, heroic or fun. For instance, I know I've played so long that the thought of just being limited to PHB classes is pretty ho-hum.

Then your ideas of interest, heroism and fun seem limited and a little sad to me. To quote the 2nd ed PHB, "Too often players become obsessed with 'good' stats. These players immediately give up on a character if he doesn't have a majority of above average scores. There are those who feel that a character is hopeless if he doesn't have at least one attribute of 17 or higher! In truth [your character's] survivability has a lot less to do with his ability scores than your desire to play him. If you give up on him of course he won't survive."

I've played so long that the PHB classes and character customisation seems exciting, invigorating and new. Wow, suddenly you can choose a class AND a race! You get skills! and these feat things... I swear, there must be billions of combinations which never stop getting fascinating for me. Of course the extra books just make things better, I'm an "as many books as you can get your hands on" GM.

I hope you find compromises so everyone is having fun and excited with the prospect of the new campaign...not just a few of you.

My players keep coming back with enthused looks on their faces. I gotta be doing something right.

 

[Thanatos]

Nevermind.

 

[Thanatos]

Except to comment on this:

Then your ideas of interest, heroism and fun seem limited and a little sad to me.

Let me return this in kind: Because I find your ideas just as sad, limited and not in the least interesting, heroic or fun.