D&D General D&D 2024 does not deserve to succeed

[Mistwell]

I mean, given the title would you rather it stayed on topic?

I'd rather it died a natural death so I don't have to see the thread title as one of the most active threads

 

[Remathilis]

I don't know man. If you can't see that Gygax was talking about heroism and playing heroes on all over the place, I don't know what to tell you. It has never been forced, and still isn't, but it was highly encouraged by being mentioned everywhere.

I actually think its a bit debatable if Gary assumed heroes would be the default method of play. The existence of the half-orc, the assassin class, and the warning of mixing alignments (rather than outright restricting them) lends some credence to it. Certainly, I don't think the days of Mordenkainen, Rollibar, and Tenser were as heroic as modern D&D says they were! However, the "heroic" strand of D&D did also exist from an early era. Certainly, paladins and rangers being mandated to be good aligned, the fact that "good" aligned races (elves, dwarves, and halflings) were PC races and "evil" aligned ones (goblins, kobolds and orcs) were not, and the fact that Law and Goodness are seen as the correct state of the world while Chaos and Evil are wrong seems to nudge players into the idea that heroic play is the preferred method.

I will say regardless, by 2nd edition, the notion that PCs were anything but heroes was firmly established. I think you can see the emerging of that coming from Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms in 1e as well, and certainly Basic (B/X and later BECMI) heavily leaned on that notion in its presentation and modules.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I actually think its a bit debatable if Gary assumed heroes would be the default method of play. The existence of the half-orc, the assassin class, and the warning of mixing alignments (rather than outright restricting them) lends some credence to it. Certainly, I don't think the days of Mordenkainen, Rollibar, and Tenser were as heroic as modern D&D says they were! However, the "heroic" strand of D&D did also exist from an early era. Certainly, paladins and rangers being mandated to be good aligned, the fact that "good" aligned races (elves, dwarves, and halflings) were PC races and "evil" aligned ones (goblins, kobolds and orcs) were not, and the fact that Law and Goodness are seen as the correct state of the world while Chaos and Evil are wrong seems to nudge players into the idea that heroic play is the preferred method.

I will say regardless, by 2nd edition, the notion that PCs were anything but heroes was firmly established. I think you can see the emerging of that coming from Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms in 1e as well, and certainly Basic (B/X and later BECMI) heavily leaned on that notion in its presentation and modules.

As I said, Hickman Revolution. And the rules supported non-heroic play just fine for long after that, through 3e even.

 

[Remathilis]

As I said, Hickman Revolution. And the rules supported non-heroic play just fine for long after that, through 3e even.

"allowed" more than supported, I would say.

 

[Maxperson]

I'd rather it died a natural death so I don't have to see the thread title as one of the most active threads

So what you are saying is that the thread does not deserve to succeed?

 

[Maxperson]

I actually think its a bit debatable if Gary assumed heroes would be the default method of play. The existence of the half-orc, the assassin class, and the warning of mixing alignments (rather than outright restricting them) lends some credence to it. Certainly, I don't think the days of Mordenkainen, Rollibar, and Tenser were as heroic as modern D&D says they were! However, the "heroic" strand of D&D did also exist from an early era. Certainly, paladins and rangers being mandated to be good aligned, the fact that "good" aligned races (elves, dwarves, and halflings) were PC races and "evil" aligned ones (goblins, kobolds and orcs) were not, and the fact that Law and Goodness are seen as the correct state of the world while Chaos and Evil are wrong seems to nudge players into the idea that heroic play is the preferred method.

I will say regardless, by 2nd edition, the notion that PCs were anything but heroes was firmly established. I think you can see the emerging of that coming from Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms in 1e as well, and certainly Basic (B/X and later BECMI) heavily leaned on that notion in its presentation and modules.

I think that's just Gary taking both sides of things again. Most of the game is geared towards the heroic, but there are things like the Assassin, poisons, evil alignments, etc. that indicate that you weren't forced down that path.

And as usual, the "evil" actions had consequences to them that often made them that discouraged use. Using poison for instance got you attacked more often and the watch was often called on you if you were in town in a fight with poison on your weapon.

The 1e game encouraged heroes all over the place, but left open options for those who didn't want to be heroes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think that's just Gary taking both sides of things again. Most of the game is geared towards the heroic, but there are things like the Assassin, poisons, evil alignments, etc. that indicate that you weren't forced down that path.

And as usual, the "evil" actions had consequences to them that often made them that discouraged use. Using poison for instance got you attacked more often and the watch was often called on you if you were in town in a fight with poison on your weapon.

The 1e game encouraged heroes all over the place, but left open options for those who didn't want to be heroes.

I would argue that was less discouraging evil and more encouraging civilization.

 

[Oofta]

So what you are saying is that the thread does not deserve to succeed?

Obviously not. There's another thread we should be paying attention to. It does not benefit the forum community to continue posting answers and paying attention into a now-lackluster, poorly managed, off-topic thread.

 

[dave2008]

As I said, Hickman Revolution. And the rules supported non-heroic play just fine for long after that, through 3e even.

both 4e and 5e supported non-heroic play to, if you let them. I know because we started level 0 in both. Heck, 5e doesn't start to get to hero levels, IMO, unit at least 3rd and maybe not till 5th.

 

[cranberry]

All this talk about heros...

I posit that D&D has become a superhero game.

I mean the effective "healing factor" of D&D PC's would put Wolverine and Deadpool to shame.