[D&D 3.5e] That New Pit Fiend

[Celebrim]

Perhaps your point might have more substance if we could actually see a sample character sheet for one of your PC's at 16th level.

 

[The Serge]

Assuming that the default SR is 12 + CR, then the revised Pit Fiend's CR is 20.

 

[jgbrowning]

Assuming that the default SR is 12 + CR, then the revised Pit Fiend's CR is 20.

Now that's believable.

joe b.

 

[Celebrim]

Actually, it is very believable. And yes, a tricked out party in which the DM has been fairly free in providing the players with the magic items that they want and has been allowing a large ammount of non-core material is probably at 16th level very much the equal in combat of a party of average playtest 20th level characters, and can probably toast a party of 20th level characters from a low magic campaign where the DM insists all feats and spells be balanced against those provided by the core material.

For myself though, I'm too old or cynical or something to buy into this 'bigger is better' mentality. When I see this Pit Fiend, what I see is a monster that is so high end that I'll almost never get to use it. Now that the top is off the can of worms, I'll probably end up reworking all the high end monsters to my desires anyway - for instance knocking about 30 attribute points off, and 3 or so natural armor, and maybe recalculating damage for a large creature instead of huge (I can always advance the monster to get back to huge if I need tougher foe. I mean I have no problem suggesting that the toughest fiends in the pit are 36 HD or more). That would I think put him back down around a 16 CR I feel comfortable with.

 

[Alzrius]

You know, I think the thing I find most upsetting about this entire thing with the new pit fiend is that about a week ago, I wrote Morrus a submission proposal for EN Mag saying I'd do a write up for a new subtype for creatures who venture off-plane, and that it'd be called Extra-planar...I think I can guess how that proposal is going to be answered now.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi ashockney mate!

Now THAT'S thinking high-level play!!!

And, no, probably not on most days.

According to the way the CR/EL system works. Yep. Granted, the Pit Fiends are tougher in many aspects, particulalry their well-roundedness. However, our party is better in each respective area (Fighter, Arcane Spellcaster, Rogue, and Cleric) and furthermore will probably have even more synergy because of the way they work together better.

I don't think the party are necessarily better in all respective areas. I think it could outfight the fighter and outspell the wizard/sorceror.

...not to mention out tumble the rogue.

Having said that, I would have no problem conceding certain key strengths to the Pit Fiends in comparison (Meteor Swarm, High SR, Special Qualities, and Insanely High Attributes).

A match? 16th Level Party against an EL 20 encounter. The party could win, but they'd need luck and decent prep to do it. More often than not, however, I think the mortality rate would exceed 50% for that kind of encounter.

Against four such monsters I think the party would have little or no chance, certainly far from the 50/50 the rules would attest (assuming CR is 16).

Hmmm....

Tempest, page 193, CR16

324 hp
24 AC (Ok, that blows, no pun intended...really)
4 attacks doing 2d8+13 (21x4 = 84 hp avg capacity in melee)
Only good save: Fort
SQ: Elemental, DR 15/+2,
Str 29, Con 28, the rest crap
Whirlwind Ability...which is sick

So, in comparison...the Pit Fiend is far more well rounded, however the damage capabilties are very similar, and the tempest has a wicked-tough damage shield that deals damage AND negates without a save Ref DC31! This effectively takes out most front line melee PC's!

The Tempest has slightly more hit points; much inferior AC; much inferior Attack Bonus; Deals less damage on average (even if it does hit with all attacks); has pathetic (by comparison) spell-like abilities; no spell resistance; inferior ability scores. Basically its a one trick pony.

Tetramorph on the next page is in the same ballpark. Awful AC, 300+ hp, SR 32 (sounds familiar), and a wicked tough attack effect (Entropic Touch).

The Teratomorph is much like the Tempest, a one trick pony. In fact it only gets one attack per round.

Most of the MM2 monsters have one really sick ability, and a variety of defenses that would be required at the appropriate CR level to "compete".

Indeed. You are going to get that 'surprise' factor that the Pit Fiend probably won't have; but thats not an indictment of its power.

I think you must have noticed with even a cursory glance at the Monster Manual 2 how much tougher the Revised Pit Fiend is compared to the majority of CR16~28 monsters within its pages.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying EVERY CR16 should look like the Pit Fiend. No, I want the Pit Fiend to be the high end of CR16 (much like the Dragons of appropriate age category). However, all CR16 creatures need to look much closer to this Pit Fiend, than to what was published originally in MM.

I think you are falling into the same trap as the Monster Manual did with dragons.

It artificially lowered the CR of dragons so they would represent a more difficult challenge; in effect they 'broke' the whole purpose of CR, and practically insulted every DM in the process.

Whats the point of having the whole system setup to represent a moderate challenge then purposefully tinker with certain CRs? Are DMs not smart enough themselves to know how tough they want the challenge to be that WotC have to trick them!?

 

[Darkness]

They'll be revising the deities' stats too !

Sheesh, Darkness, pay attention !

Agreed. If they don't revise DDG, ELH, etc., all those books will hardly be very usable for 3e rev, power-wise.

 

[Darkness]

Tempest, page 193, CR16

324 hp
24 AC (Ok, that blows, no pun intended...really)
4 attacks doing 2d8+13 (21x4 = 84 hp avg capacity in melee)
Only good save: Fort
SQ: Elemental, DR 15/+2,
Str 29, Con 28, the rest crap
Whirlwind Ability...which is sick

So, in comparison...the Pit Fiend is far more well rounded, however the damage capabilties are very similar, and the tempest has a wicked-tough damage shield that deals damage AND negates without a save Ref DC31! This effectively takes out most front line melee PC's!
Tetramorph on the next page is in the same ballpark. Awful AC, 300+ hp, SR 32 (sounds familiar), and a wicked tough attack effect (Entropic Touch).

Most of the MM2 monsters have one really sick ability, and a variety of defenses that would be required at the appropriate CR level to "compete".

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying EVERY CR16 should look like the Pit Fiend. No, I want the Pit Fiend to be the high end of CR16 (much like the Dragons of appropriate age category). However, all CR16 creatures need to look much closer to this Pit Fiend, than to what was published originally in MM.

We don't yet know how close 3e rev PCs will be to 3e PCs, though; maybe (okay - probably) they will be boosted as well.

 

[Quasqueton]

advanced pit fiend

Several folks in this thread have mentioned how the 3.0 pit fiend needed a boost in power to be the big terror they are billed as. Well, remember that the monsters listed in the MM are considered the smallest, weakest, and most common of the given species. So to make the more impressive version, instead of changing the base pit fiend stats, you could just use the advancement rules for 3.0. Here is an advanced pit fiend. (Note this is not even the most advanced possible.)


Devil, Pit Fiend
Huge Outsider (Baatezu, Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 26d8+182 (299 hp)
Initiative: +4 (+4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
AC: 31 (-2 size, +23 natural) touch 8, flat footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +26/+44
Attack: Claw +35 melee (1d8+11) Full Attack: 2 claws +35 melee (1d8+11) and 2 wings +33 melee (1d6+5) and bite +33 melee (2d8+5 and poison plus disease) and tail slap +33 (2d6+5)
Face/Reach: 10 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d6+16, fear aura, improved grab, spell-like abilities, summon baatezu.
Special Qualities: Acid resistance 20, cold resistance 20, DR 25/+2, fire immunity, poison immunity, regeneration 5, see in darkness, SR 28, telepathy.
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +15, Will +20.
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 11, Con 25, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 16.
Skills: /snip - didn't have time to go through all these, but it would have 338 skill points to work with
Feats: Cleave, Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved Disarm, Improved Imitative, Iron Will, Multi-Attack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-like Ability.

Tactics Round-by-Round
The pit fiend opens with spell-like powers, attempting to neutralize dangerous opponents before entering melee combat.
Round 0: Unholy aura; activate fear aura; quickened summon Baatezu.
Round 1: Hold person against unarmored opponent (preferably a spellcaster).
Round 2: Meteor swarm against as many foes as possible, approach worst-injured enemy.
Round 3: Full attack against injured enemy.
Round 4: Continue melee against injured enemy, or hold person against annoying spellcaster.
Round 5: Repeat from round 1; or greater teleport to safety if endangered.


The above pit fiend stats are using the 3.0 rules, but with the 3.5 layout. I still hold that the base stats didn't need changing. To make a more powerful pit fiend, a DM only needs to spend a few minutes (as I just did here) to advance the creature, or maybe add class levels to it. Imagine a standard pit fiend with a dozen fighter or sorcerer levels!

Quasqueton

 

[ashockney]

We don't yet know how close 3e rev PCs will be to 3e PCs, though; maybe (okay - probably) they will be boosted as well.

This is an excellent point as well. Even a simple little nerf like what they did to HASTE makes a combat with this big boy MUCH tougher.

Perhaps your point might have more substance if we could actually see a sample

Here's some basic stats from a 12 Rog/4 Fighter..
Init: +12
HP: 128
AC: 34 (38 w/Haste)+Displacement

(on AC he deals an average of 58 points to me in a Full Attack action, with my displacement cut that to 29 on average)

Saves: 14/20/8

(60% chance of taking no damage from meteor swarm, he'd kill me with the Mass Hold Monster unless I had Freedom of Movement up going in, but worst case the cleric removes it on his next action, his poison/disease attack could prove troublesome)

MS/Hide: +35, Tumble: +25, UMD/DD: +15

Uses Keen Falchion +5 (WF, WS, IC, Exp Tact, and Opportunist)and routinely gets 6d6 Sneak Attack on every swing, crits on a 12+, with base damage in the 2d4+10 range. His attack routine is +27/+22/+17 with an extra +27 from hasted action and an extra +27 from Exp Tactician and hopefully an extra +27 from Opportunist(he will always seek circumstance bonuses from things like flanking, attacking from above).

When everything gets going with Imp Invs up, that's 6 attacks total, 4 attacks with about a 50/50 chance of hitting straight up on Mr. Fiend, or a against his flat footed AC32, that's a 75% chance to hit. Throw in a 45% chance of critting on each successful hit. Two more attacks coming with a 25% (50%) and 5%(30%) chance of hitting. Assuming some averages let's say I hit on 2 attacks and crit on one of those. Both attacks have sneak attack, which deals 14+18 on the first hit, and 28+18 on the second for a total of 78 points of damage a round on average. You don't want to see when I get lucky and crit three times in a round.

Granted...this is using quite a few assumptions. But it sets the stage that this guy could fairly easily deal enough damage to take out the pit fiend in about 4 rounds by himself.