barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
And they don't care whether or not you're having any fun, evidently.Tom Cashel said:
Yeah, the problem MUST be 3E. What else could it be?
D&D 3E: the Death of Imagination?
- Thread starter Tom Cashel
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Yeah, the problem MUST be 3E. What else could it be?
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
I know what you mean. The image of hong covered in lard really opened up my eyes, too.Piratecat said:
Re: D&D and the Death of Imagination
Why don't you just play 3E without the rules? People puts a lot of implicit importance on rules (not just DMs but palyers too), b/c they think, if there's rules, I should follow them for better fun. And that could be true. but if you're not having fun, then throw the rules out. As long as you as a DM are consistant, then you don't need the rules. You don't have to look up how to run a grapple every time. Or what actions provoke an attack of opportunity. In fact, dare I say, you could get rid of attacks of opportunity all together. You're the DM, you can alter the core rules. As long as you're consistant and eveyone is on the same page, the printed rules hold no power over you.
I'm with hong....( never thought I'd say that
) sounds like you have a case of DM burn out.... been behind the screen for too long. Take a break, roll up a character, and kill some things. You'll feel better.
suzi
Tom Cashel said:
Why don't you just play 3E without the rules? People puts a lot of implicit importance on rules (not just DMs but palyers too), b/c they think, if there's rules, I should follow them for better fun. And that could be true. but if you're not having fun, then throw the rules out. As long as you as a DM are consistant, then you don't need the rules. You don't have to look up how to run a grapple every time. Or what actions provoke an attack of opportunity. In fact, dare I say, you could get rid of attacks of opportunity all together. You're the DM, you can alter the core rules. As long as you're consistant and eveyone is on the same page, the printed rules hold no power over you.
I'm with hong....( never thought I'd say that
) sounds like you have a case of DM burn out.... been behind the screen for too long. Take a break, roll up a character, and kill some things. You'll feel better. suzi
Ulrick
First Post
I'm gonna have to agree a little bit here with Mr. Cashel.
While 3e is a great system, it is a little rules intensive. Sure, its been streamlined but all the skills and feats make the game seem mechanical. Last night with my bard/rogue character I went around gathering information. I wanted to roleplay it out a little. But the DM rolled for the checks.
I play D&D and RPGs because I want to experience situations similar to characters in books and movies. Before I started gaming at the age of 10, I was already an avid reader and writer of fantasy.
D&D for me is another creative outlet--a damn good one too.
But the feel of 3ed doesn't seem to promote creativity. It's mostly flash and rules. I don't look through the Players Handbook or the DMG and get inspired to create adventures based on what I read in there. Unlike in 1st ed. where I'd flip through the pages, read some of Gygaxian prose, and an idea would come.
Yes, I know that the DMG has a table with 100 adventure ideas. But I only use those as a last resort--being a stickler for trying to be original.
The "feel" I get when I read 3rd ed. books is that if I don't know the rules, then I won't be able to effectively run the game. Basically, I feel like the rules don't support me, but rather I support the rules. If you get my meaning.
One example to support this are these "uber stat blocks." Luckily, I got smart and use 3"x5" index cards and cut out any extraneous information such as skills that probably be won't used.
While I know that with 3e, D&D has gained a lot. But I think it has lost some of the imagination that created it in the first place. The magic seems to be gone.
While 3e is a great system, it is a little rules intensive. Sure, its been streamlined but all the skills and feats make the game seem mechanical. Last night with my bard/rogue character I went around gathering information. I wanted to roleplay it out a little. But the DM rolled for the checks.
I play D&D and RPGs because I want to experience situations similar to characters in books and movies. Before I started gaming at the age of 10, I was already an avid reader and writer of fantasy.
D&D for me is another creative outlet--a damn good one too.
But the feel of 3ed doesn't seem to promote creativity. It's mostly flash and rules. I don't look through the Players Handbook or the DMG and get inspired to create adventures based on what I read in there. Unlike in 1st ed. where I'd flip through the pages, read some of Gygaxian prose, and an idea would come.
Yes, I know that the DMG has a table with 100 adventure ideas. But I only use those as a last resort--being a stickler for trying to be original.
The "feel" I get when I read 3rd ed. books is that if I don't know the rules, then I won't be able to effectively run the game. Basically, I feel like the rules don't support me, but rather I support the rules. If you get my meaning.
One example to support this are these "uber stat blocks." Luckily, I got smart and use 3"x5" index cards and cut out any extraneous information such as skills that probably be won't used.
While I know that with 3e, D&D has gained a lot. But I think it has lost some of the imagination that created it in the first place. The magic seems to be gone.
Tom Cashel said:
Try my brother's trick.
No one at the gaming table can have any other book except the PHB. You cannot look up a spell unless you are the caster, (he usually tells those that suceed a spellcraft check the name of the spell and basically what it can do, but not too many details. this helps cut down on rules lawyering so you as the DM can to whatever the heck you want
edit: this helps cut down on rules lawyering so you as the DM can to whatever the heck you want
No one can look at the DMG or MM (except for the polymorphed wizard, trying to figure out what creature to turn into next--and even then, DM always uses his judgement based on the wiz's knowledge skill points) If they give him flack, he gently reminds them, its more important for all of us to have fun (this includes you too
) than it is for you to have fun. That's the one people forget all too often.Good luck and I hope you find your muse again.
suzi
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barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
I call them Squeaker and Sleeker.suzi yee said:I just want to know who made naked hong and hong slathered in lard the only two options....
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
I hope this comes across as helpful, and not as a trollish snarl:Tom Cashel said:
In some ways, I treat the job of DMing the same way I treated the job of being a basketball referee. I learned the rules, and I studied the rules, even the obscure ones, and I carried that knowledge into games. It has been said that there are three attitudes a referee can have:
1.) I call them as they are. ("I never make mistakes. Do not question my authority.")
2.) I call them as I see them. ("I'm doing my best; I'm only human, but I may make mistakes.")
3.) They ain't nothing until I call them. ("I am the living extension of the rulebook on the court.")
I personally think #1 is the wrong attitude to have (all of us make mistakes and players tend to chafe at a DM who never admits mistakes). I also think #2 leaves you open to being run over by the players (RPG players will whine and complain for "calls" as badly as any NBA player). That leaves #3 - and I think it's the best attitude to have for reasons I will make clear in a moment.
"Rule #1 when I DM: The rulebooks do not enter the gaming room. Only the players do."
Corollary 1: Players may not resort to an "appeal to the rulebook," nor may they "quote the rules" once a decision has been handed down. For the purposes of decisions made during a session, I, as the DM, am in fact the rulebook. There is no higher authority. Rules are my job during sessions, not the books'. The books' job is to teach me the rules I don't know (or don't know well) between sessions. That makes the rulebooks the DMs' learning tool, not the players' weapon.
Corollary 2: If a player feels a ruling was unjust and/or incorrect, he may consult with the DM in private, after the fact, and make his case. Also, if the DM makes a judgement call where he is unsure of the rule in question, he may choose to review his own decision. The DM will spend the time between sessions researching the rule in question (a quick drop by the ENWorld boards is usually enough). If the DM finds out he was mistaken, he will announce his judgement error at the next session - but the "correct" judgement will NOT be retroactively applied. Rather, it will be applied to all judgements going forward. The same applies for house rules; they are never applied retroactively.
I have found that this rule and its two corollaries tend to take a lot of the "players vs. the DM" conflict out of the game. The DM - not the players - is cast as the definitive source for "on-the-fly" interpretation and enforcing of the rules. The DM is cast as fallible, but just like any sports official, his initial calls are not overturned (we don't do "instant replay challenges here") - only corrected going forward (when was the last time you saw an NBA official reverse a foul call after he had made it or saw a Major League Baseball Umpire say, "you know what, you're right - that was really a ball... hey, scorekeeper, change that strike to a ball!")
You tell the players that you are in charge at the gaming table and you are the ultimate authority. And by taking away the rulebooks from the players at the table, you reinforce that authority. In a sporting event, you don't see the coaches or players whip out a rulebook and shove it in the referee's face. Why should RPGs be any different?
Hope that gives some useful advice... seriously, I think that it's the best way to cast yourself as, "the living voice of the rules," while leaving yourself room to make mistakes. And most players will get the sports analogy that calls don't get reversed, but the rule may be interpreted differently in the future if the referee studies the rulebook and finds out he was wrong.
--The Sigil
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CaptainCalico
Community Supporter
I have seen players who seem to have split personalities: they get into the collaborative storytelling thing for White Wolf games, and then they treat D&D like it is only for rules-heavy hack’n’slash. I find that annoying, as I have seen D&D 3ed used to tell in-depth stories with lots of character development, and I have seen WW games that were nothing but bloody slugfests.
If your players are willing to collaborate with you when using one rules set, and yet turn into rules-lawyering min-maxers with another rules set I would sit down and talk with them about their own preconceptions about enjoyable ways to play regardless of what type of dice you are rolling.
I really don’t think the PHB is some sort of magical Jekyl-and-Hyde potion that is corrupting your players
If your players are willing to collaborate with you when using one rules set, and yet turn into rules-lawyering min-maxers with another rules set I would sit down and talk with them about their own preconceptions about enjoyable ways to play regardless of what type of dice you are rolling.
I really don’t think the PHB is some sort of magical Jekyl-and-Hyde potion that is corrupting your players
Lord Zardoz
Explorer
Perfect subject line...
It is perfectly worded to elicit a specific kneejerk response. But it does have the nice side effect of guaranteeing that people view the thread, and respond. In professional wrestling, this sort of thing is called "Cheap Heat". Making that post on these boards is tantamount to saying "Maple Leafs Suck" while in Toronto.
I personally disagree with your statement. The DM is certantly not made obsolete just because the rules happen to be more detailed. And not every eventuality is covered by the rules. I will beleive that when 10 different people from this forum spit back the same answer for this question:
What is the Climb DC for someone to climb an angry Cloud Giant?
END COMMUNICATION
It is perfectly worded to elicit a specific kneejerk response. But it does have the nice side effect of guaranteeing that people view the thread, and respond. In professional wrestling, this sort of thing is called "Cheap Heat". Making that post on these boards is tantamount to saying "Maple Leafs Suck" while in Toronto.
I personally disagree with your statement. The DM is certantly not made obsolete just because the rules happen to be more detailed. And not every eventuality is covered by the rules. I will beleive that when 10 different people from this forum spit back the same answer for this question:
What is the Climb DC for someone to climb an angry Cloud Giant?
END COMMUNICATION
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