D&D 4E D&D 4E and psychology: Hit chance too low?

[kermel]

Players who specialize heavily in combat are better at combat--that's a feature, not a bug.

And what's the point in allowing players to specialize heavily in combat? I mean, it's very reasonable to allow specializing in a combat role, or in a style of fighting, that doesn't create any inbalances in the party because each character shines in his own niche. It's also very reasonable to allow specializing in a non combat skill or feature, again each character has chances to shine. But what do we gain from allowing character with same level and class but significant differences in to hit rolls? Why would that make the game more fun? Because, you know, if somewhat insists in playing a weak character for the sake of it, he can always stay at 1st level forever.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

And what's the point in allowing players to specialize heavily in combat? I mean, it's very reasonable to allow specializing in a combat role, or in a style of fighting, that doesn't create any inbalances in the party because each character shines in his own niche. It's also very reasonable to allow specializing in a non combat skill or feature, again each character has chances to shine. But what do we gain from allowing character with same level and class but significant differences in to hit rolls? Why would that make the game more fun? Because, you know, if somewhat insists in playing a weak character for the sake of it, he can always stay at 1st level forever.

Because the game can consist of activities other than combat, and it can be a legitimate choice to play a character who specializes in harming people to the exclusion of other, more scholarly pursuits. In a game that's equal parts combat and investigation, the cowardly police inspector is on equal footing with the dim-witted bouncer.

 

[Spatula]

An 18 isn't a Greek god. A 30, maybe (18 start, +2 race, +8 levels, +2 demigod destiny). 18 is pretty puny in comparison. And the difference between a 16 and an 18 isn't that noticeable - it's going to turn 1 out of every 20 attacks into a miss, on average. That's one attack out of what, 4-5 combats?

I kinda agree with the DM problem angle, or at least a playstyle mismatch. If players are optimizing for combat to the exclusion of everything else, either they're not being given a reason to value other mechanical aspects of their characters, or perhaps they just don't care about anything else and just want to hack'n'slash.

 

[kermel]

Because the game can consist of activities other than combat, and it can be a legitimate choice to play a character who specializes in harming people to the exclusion of other, more scholarly pursuits. In a game that's equal parts combat and investigation, the cowardly police inspector is on equal footing with the dim-witted bouncer.

Dnd player characters are action heroes. Coward or dim-witted characters could be good PCs as long as these traits don't actually detract from their role as adventurers and main characters. A cowardly inspector cannot fight well should be an NPC, whereas a bouncer should not be necessarily dim-witted to be able to fight well.

I believe my views on this matter are in agreement with the design goals of 4th edition. Quoting "Races and Classes", page 67:

"To better balance the classes, the design team set aside noncombat functions and looked solely at what each class does in a fight. We then balanced their abilities across the board, while following a similar process for noncombat abilities. By cutting off any bleed in balance between those areas, we created characters that are on equal footing across every part of an adventure, rather than creating a situation where player characters are balanced only if you look at all the encounter as a whole."

I think the next logical step is removing or at least lessening the effects of ability modifiers.

 

[darkwing]

I'm really curious what aspect of buying and increasing attributes you dislike, given that you choose feats, skills, and powers.

I thought I wrote it down somewhere. Ah here it is, right in the part you quoted. Anyway, here are the primary reasons:

They make it too easy to get the group unbalanced with respect to each other.

This is the main reason. The group members should be balanced with each other. Attribute selection can make some characters more effective in combat than others. A little bit of difference is ok, but when you're talking the difference between +4 and +0, it's a bit much. Why doesn't everyone just give themselves the best hit attribute? Well, often they do, but when you make a choice mandatory, it's not really a choice and just adds needless complexity to the game.

It would be nice if once you trained a skill you became good at it, regardless of attribute scores (another area where attribute scores create an imbalance).

Attributes limit what you can be good at skill wise, limiting "concept" customization. They imbalance maximum skill levels among party members, making good fun skill challenges difficult for the DM (either too easy for some of the members or too hard for others).

A character should be defined by the powers and skills she gains as she levels, not by attribute scores she picked at 1st level.

This is kind of a throw away line, but the point is, if WotC completely eliminated attributes, the "core" of gameplay would still be there (and more balanced at the same time).

Character creation is the point where you're least likely to have the experience needed to make an informed decision about attribute scores. The most difficult decision at character creation should be what class to play.

This is a biggie. If you're a new player to the game, or don't want to spend a lot of time researching attribute requirements for feats, attribute selection is a hassle. Or you just pick what you think you might need but then later on if you find a feat you don't have attributes for, or you just don't hit often enough, etc... you can't retrain them. Why should so much research be front loaded for the player? Ideally one should be able to make a character in under 10 minutes without screwing oneself because one didn't read the entire power and feat sections for their character for the next 29 levels.