D&D 4E D&D 4E in a non-magical world

If you were going to run D&D in a world without magic (or at least one where magic is rare and subtle), in a setting something like medieval Western Europe, what classes would you include? Would you just do classes with the martial power source and that's it, or do you think there are ways to sneak the other classes in?

And... what about monsters?
 

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You would need new classes.

I would recommend tweaking some classes, like the warlord. Take out the healing, give him slightly better armor proficiency, and a raft of social utilities. Base his abilities on Charisma, and make it clear Intelligence is not necessary, but a warlord with high Int would be considered more dangerous. Strength would probably not be that important. The warlord would be a noble captain/count or something along those lines. Other nobles would be "knights" instead (possibly using the knight class). I'm not sure what role this PC would have, as it's sort of a mix between controller and soldier (leader). I could picture a paragon path for more intelligent, "lazy" warlords, if one doesn't exist already. (I'm thinking Zhuge Liang, even though he wouldn't fit in a western setting.)

A lot of social roles wouldn't be suitable for PCs. A guildmaster, for instance, is an NPC, and likely a minion. Priests would usually be minions, perhaps with rituals if you're still using "subtle" magic. You don't need (or want) a traveling merchant class. That's a theme that a PC could take (and most NPC merchants would be minions). Bard would also be a theme.

"Take out the healing"... if you're removing magic, you won't have clerics or (magic) bards anyway. You'll need to come up with a different mechanic. One suggestion might be simply more hit points, which degrade over the course of the day/adventure. Another alternative is the Gamma World solution. In GW, origins are basically classes, and are selected randomly. A few, like Mythic and Electrokinetic, are essentially "leaders" and have healing powers, but most don't, and you can (and will, if you play GW) experience parties with no healers. In GW, Second Wind is a minor action and heals 50% of your hit points. Healing powers (like what the Mythic has) are pretty weak; the Mythic can heal 1 hp/level once per encounter. Needless to say, random vampiric mutations become valuable (along with ways to counter them). Between encounters, PCs heal up to full. Gamma World PCs have no healing surges, as the unit of combat is the encounter, not the day/adventure.

IMO, you should still allow full recovery with extended rests. No, it is not realistic, but if you don't do this, you have PCs who won't adventure beyond a day. They'll go back to base, rest up, then wonder why the villains keep winning.

D20 Modern is helpful here. Look up the MSRD if you don't have it. Look up the Surgery feat/rules. (The feat merely takes away the penalty, I don't know where the rules are exactly, but I'll short form them. In addition to quick 1/day healing of a measly number of hp without appropriate talents/classes, you can use surgery. This heals 1d6 hp/level of the target, is effectively a martial practice [ritual] which takes 1d4 hours, and afterward the target is fatigued for a period of time, based on how well the surgeon rolled. You can only perform surgery on a character 1/day.) Use this is you passionately hate having PCs fully heal at the end of the day. Expect daily surgery, and make sure someone takes that martial practice, or, failing that, make doctors easily available. (Realistic healing rules just do not suit adventuring.)

Monsters are easy. Custom-generate generic and unique NPCs. By the ton. They could literally all be human.
 
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Shadus

First Post
Depends on your definition of "Magic".
If your wanting complete realism, then keep it strictly Martial. With maybe a Barbarian Monk, and Bard, just with limited powers to choose from, to keep things from seeming to magical.
But if you don't mind things being closer to the fantasy realm, then re-fluffing is your best friend. See the Sorcerer doesn't have to be a arcane prodigy, but instead could be a man of science, throwing around bombs and drinking potions. You could do similar with many classes if not all classes. You just have to be opened minded, or have players willing to do the work to fluff things in a more down to earth way.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
You would need new classes.

I would recommend tweaking some classes, like the warlord. Take out the healing

Well that is an ahem ridiculous recommendation... inspiration is now consistently visualized as not having physical elements tadah.
You basically said break the game so you can fix it.. instead of using it how it still works-- sheesh.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Depends on your definition of "Magic".
If your wanting complete realism, then keep it strictly Martial. With maybe a Barbarian Monk, and Bard, just with limited powers to choose from, to keep things from seeming to magical.
But if you don't mind things being closer to the fantasy realm, then re-fluffing is your best friend. See the Sorcerer doesn't have to be a arcane prodigy, but instead could be a man of science, throwing around bombs and drinking potions. You could do similar with many classes if not all classes. You just have to be opened minded, or have players willing to do the work to fluff things in a more down to earth way.

Alchemy sure.. flavors in for many classes in fact Sorceror is not necessarily the best for that role... I am picturing throwing down a vial that spills smoke and a warlock works or a wizard splashing acid on enemies... shrug. Emphasize the ingredients angle.
 

Evenglare

Adventurer
I have actually run this before, first you need to say aloud to yourself " Hit point are not a representation of physical damage but an over all willingness to battle" . Once you say and understand this your class selection becomes a bit wider.

This is what I used...

Strikers -
Ranger
Rogue
Avenger
Barbarian
Monk

Leaders-
Warlords
Bards
Cleric (whether you agree with divine presence or not a cleric as a healer magic or medicine is a must for a medieval campaign)

Defenders-
Fighters
Paladin( as with the cleric medieval campaigns are almost defined by religion and templar types)
Druids( not so much as a magical entity but nature and spiritual beings certainly existed, up to you though)
Seekers


Just my 2 cents. Many people were (and sadly still are) very willing to believe in the supernatural so most "spells" can be explained by herbalism, and chemistry(alchemy) or simply good showmanship. Druids animal form could simply be them hiding and letting their pet fight. Stuff like that.
 

Dice4Hire

First Post
You would need new classes.

snip

Monsters are easy. Custom-generate generic and unique NPCs. By the ton. They could literally all be human.

I think the OP said non-magical fantasy, but you are going all the way to modern, it sounds like. Plus this is a massive change to 4E. It is better to allow as much 4E as possible.
 

Simple rule: All characters with the Martial power source (including semi-martial characters like the skald, the beserker, the executioner, and the e-Rangers). Players may ask on a case by case basis to also use the Barbarian, the Bard, the Sentinel Druid, the Paladin (including the Blackguard), the Avenger, and the Warpriest - although any explicitely magical effects will be removed (so Divine Challenge no longer deals damage but the mark still works).

Monks to taste - I'd allow them but they may not fit the tone of the game. (For that matter a Monk makes a great thief or assassin).
 

Thanks for all the input. I think I am leaning towards the following list:

Assassin (Executioner) - Striker
Barbarian (Berserker) - Defender/Striker
Bard (Skald) - Leader
Fighter (Knight) - Defender
Fighter (Slayer) - Striker
Fighter (Weaponmaster) - Defender
Ranger - Striker
Ranger (Hunter) - Controller
Ranger (Scout) - Striker
Rogue (Scoundrel) - Striker
Rogue (Thief) - Striker
Warlord (Marshal) - Leader

Though I am intrigued by the idea of "reskinning" the druid as a character with a very active non-magical animal companion. What would be the best way to go about doing this? Which druid class/build is the best to use?
 

IMO, you should still allow full recovery with extended rests. No, it is not realistic, but if you don't do this, you have PCs who won't adventure beyond a day. They'll go back to base, rest up, then wonder why the villains keep winning.
I am actually thinking of converting Reserve Points from the 3E Unearthed Arcana for this purpose (Described here: Reserve Points :: d20srd.org). Makes healing feel limited but allows more continued adventuring.
D20 Modern is helpful here. Look up the MSRD if you don't have it. Look up the Surgery feat/rules.
Super-useful, thanks.
inspiration is now consistently visualized as not having physical elements.
Though some of the rest of his reply could've been phrased more politely, I think Garthanos is right about this, and so I will let the Warlord and Bard continue to heal.
 
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