D&D and war

[NimrodvanHall]

Indeed.
Personally I use a demographic where only 50% are War-1s, 25% War-2, 12.5% War-3 etc.
The DMG's "war" section assumes armies include masses of War-1 expendables. That gives D&D warfare a very WW1/WW2 or Napoloeonic Wars feel. If you're modelling something like War of the Roses, armies will be far smaller and far better equipped - the baseline troops will be highly equipped Fighters with large proportions of higher level knights.

This will work well in a low magic world or one in witch the spell casters do not interfere with war. Otherwise this will lead to packed troops, who will die super fast to spellcasters. I think this aproch leads to the same problem as sending cavelry against tanks ( like the polish did against the Germans in WWII) your average verry well equiped army of fighters stands no cnace against some summoned Fiends or celestials, flying mages or druids.

War is mass sacrifice.

The reason why you need big armies is that they can occupy land. High-level 'special forces' can zoom from hotspot to hotspot, but they cant hold a large tract of land by themselves.

I think you have THE valid pint here. In my imagination a D&D war will be something like the invasion of Iraque by the USA and alies.
First High levels with acces to teleport will strike out in "Teleport raids" trying to disable oposing spellcasters, see this as cruise-missiles(SP?) destroying enemy airbases and missile lauch platforns, other (adventuring) teams slip past borders to wreak all kind of mayhem, (seals, commandos) stealth teams assasinate wizards/clerics who deem themselves protected against teleporting foes. And when the really dangarous opposition hes been destroyed, the infantry (lvl 1 warriors) occupy the country and beat the commoners into submission.

 

[Hussar]

As was mentioned, the demographics of a "standard" DnD world, at least according to the DMG, means that there should be FAR fewer "adventurer" types around. According to the charts, you only see an 18th level character (ONE mind you) of a given character class in a metropolis. Unless your world has some major overpopulation issues, not too many cities should qualify for this size on an entire continent, let alone nation.

Something I think DM's tend to forget when crafting adventures is how rare PC classes should be and even rarer for the higher levels. A small city should have maybe one double digit spell caster in the entire city.

Now, as far as critters go, that varies greatly depending on setting. Some settings have far more and far stronger critters wandering around than could realistically be supported by the local food supplies. This is what happens when world designers tend not to hold biology degrees. )

 

[S'mon]

This will work well in a low magic world or one in witch the spell casters do not interfere with war. Otherwise this will lead to packed troops, who will die super fast to spellcasters. I think this aproch leads to the same problem as sending cavelry against tanks ( like the polish did against the Germans in WWII) your average verry well equiped army of fighters stands no cnace against some summoned Fiends or celestials, flying mages or druids.

1. Masses of War-1s with spears suffer the same fate as (AIR) Pickett's Charge against enemy spellcasters - they die in droves. This tactic may still be worthwhile though - Stalin was happy to sacrifice millions of ill-equipped Soviet troops to defeat the Germans. Of course a high-level Wizard is more like an Apache or AT-10, but with far less limitation on 'home base' - best way to kill a wizard is CDG while they're asleep! A Wizard's well-defended tower equates to a well-guarded airfield, take that out and the Wizard has to sleep somewhere insecure, he becomes vulnerable.

2. A well equipped army of Fighters in standard D&D includes magic gear (flight, most obviously, and magic weapons) and auxiliary spellcasters of course; they can perfectly well face fiendish or celestial forces of similar EL.

 

[S'mon]

I find D&D warfare plays out lot like WW2 - unsurprisingly, since Gygax based the rules off WW2 wargaming! Fighters are Main Battle Tanks or (with flight) fighter planes, Sorcs & Wizzes are artillery or bombers, air superiority becomes vital - try to invade a Wiz-heavy land without adequate air cover and your Fighters end up like the King Tigers at the Battle of the Bulge.

 

[S'mon]

I think you have THE valid pint here. In my imagination a D&D war will be something like the invasion of Iraque by the USA and alies.

Where there's a sufficient disparity in resources it does indeed play out just like that. IMC the planetary Superpower (the Overkingdom) launched a surprise attack on a small feudal realm (Imgart), the assault itself was a total walkover. The Overkingdom had access to 9th level magic and champions up to 18th level, Imgart had maybe 6th level magic and their best hero was a Ftr-15 who died in the first 12 seconds of the attack... Of course the mop-up proved a little harder, Imgart guerillas/terrorists are still attacking Overkingdom supply trains 6 years later...

 

[S'mon]

Upper_Krust referred to it as "Operation Imgart Freedom" btw.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Whenever I think about DnD warfare I think about the Illiad.

The Illiad:

HUGE numbers of grunt troops pushing around the battlefield, picking things up, building fortifications, establishing status, and powering ships.

Do they matter? No, not really.

Who/what does matter?

Mostly a fairly small corps of commanders and heros on either side.

An even smaller corps of elite campions.

The tide of battle made up of those HUGE numbers of grunts running toward or away from the rest of the people who matter.

The favor of the gods and of fate.


What differences are there?

In DnD the role of the gods would be split between ultra high level heroes and the actual gods of DnD.

The presence of small numbers of magic users and various PC classes among the huge numbers of grunts probably affect tactics to some limited degree through blessings, bardic encouragement, and tactical spell use among other things.

 

[S'mon]

I agree - the Iliad is a great model for high level D&D warfare, all GMs should read it! Heck, it even has gods fighting on the battlefield! I love how when 1 side (Trojans) Gates in Ares, Athena on the Greek side 'Buffs' Diomedes to take him out...

This might not work for some groups, but I found you can model Iliad warfare by randomly rolling to see which self-declared Champions on each side encounter each other, with the battle itself as scenery. Once the duels have been fought, the results factor into the War Machine d% roll to see which side actually wins. This works for battles of 10,000+, below that size high-level characters will totally dominate because the can kill a substantial proportion of the enemy army.

 

[D+1]

Can anyone tell me a logical reason of fielding an army of lvl 1 warriors in a tipical D&D setting?
Due to the prevailance of mid to high lvl characters, monsters and what not, It seems like mass sacrafice to me.

The prevalence of mid-high level characters, monsters etc. is not dictated by D&D rules, it's dictated by the DM and the setting he runs.

For example, I'm running a setting where the most powerful people in the world are generally only about 10th - 12th level. More powerful individuals certainly exist but are generally unknown, isolated, or not interested in exerting raw power in the world, and thus do not contribute to the "prevalence" of high level characters destabilizing the relative importance of lower level characters. If and when the appearance and influence of higher level characters in my campaign is needed or desired then they are either going to "suddenly" appear as they change their attitudes, or they're going to increase gradually as they WORK to become higher level and more powerful.

My take on mass combat in general in D&D is found at: http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/masscmbt.htm

 

[D-rock]

Don't forget cost also. Properly equiping a bunch of high level adventurers will really add up after a while. Plus, while some of them might be fighting for god and country, others will not work for free and will want payment for their services. A lot of armies today still have a simular problem where better protecting the solder or buying the next generation of military equipment is possible but the cost will get out hand for them eventually.