D&D 5E D&D and who it's aimed at

[doctorhook]

i am so annoyed there ISN"T a good 4e retroclone

Right now, Pathfinder 2e is my favourite mashup of 3.5, 4E, and 5E.

PF2 and DCC are two opposite games that both scratch my D&D itch more than 5E does.

But since my main group isn’t ready to switch permanently, Level Up: A5E is the only 5E I really want to play.

 

[Mercurius]

While I generally agree that WotC has shifted its tone of late towards a broader, and younger, demographic, I wouldn't equate "whimsical, light and fluffy" with childish, and "grim and gritty" with adult.

First of all, children are drawn to darkness - to scary stuff. Certainly, we generally don't tell our children stories involving gore and the darkest sides of human nature, but they are fascinated by the dark side. One of my professors illustrated this to me years ago, when he talked about telling his young daughter stories at night and wanting to keep it light and happy. His daughter became impatient, and said "Get to the trouble!" I also found this the case with my own children. I used to tell my oldest daughter bed-times stories about a unicorn and she was bored until Something Bad happened. Or as soon as I allowed her to watch horror movies, she became obsessed.

I think someone said upthread, it is more a matter of taste and flavor, at least as far as the "whimsy vs grimdark" spectrum.

Now it may be that the whimsical is a tone that arises first in childhood, and grimdark is more of an adolescent emergence. But they carry on, develop, and can be re-embraced and enjoyed as an adult.

And more importantly: it is only a narrow band. There are a lot of tones and flavors that exist outside of whimsy vs. grimdark. Personally speaking, my favorite fantasy tones couldn't be described as whimsy or grimdark. Or rather, those aren't the things I emphasize or look for. My favorite elements have to do with deep history and mythology, exploring the remnants of lost civilizations, touching upon ancient stories, and uncovering the deeper secrets of the world. I like exploring fantastical locations, and whatever stimulates a sense of awe and wonder, or at least curiosity. None of which is necessarily whimsical or grimdark.

So as far as the direction that WotC is taking, I see a combination of factors: appealing to a younger demographic; appealing to more contemporary sensibilities; focusing on certain flavors of fantasy - more Guardians of the Galaxy than Dark Knight, certainly, but also more Stardust than Excalibur. More Pirates of the Caribbean than Game of Thrones.

That doesn't mean they won't broaden and expand again, or explore other tones and flavors. It is an ever-shifting and evolving game. Trends rise and fall, sensibilities change and evolve.

 

[Retreater]

I started playing D&D around 1990. We never got into Spelljammer. We thought it was ridiculous, almost a parody of a true campaign setting. (We were more into Dark Sun, Ravenloft, and to a lesser extent Forgotten Realms.) I'm not bashing on anyone who enjoys it, but it wasn't for us, even as teenagers. There was something about melting down +5 longswords to power a spaceship to go visit with space hamsters that just seemed ... silly?
I've spoken before about my need for the hobby to be taken seriously. I don't like whimsy or humor in my sci-fi/fantasy. I feel like it's already a struggle to find good players who get invested in a game world, and to make a joke out of it makes that even more difficult.
Sure, it's just "an elf game," but I have met my longest and closest friends from this game. We used the roleplaying to get through the deaths of friends and parents. It means something to me.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I've spoken before about my need for the hobby to be taken seriously.

Gonna be honest here: I've played a long time and I find that my days of not taking the hobby seriously is certainly coming to a middle.

Especially since other hobbies of mine hurled themselves bodily into a chipper-shredder of suck chasing the 'I wanna be seen a grown' train. (Looking at you, comics. Did you notice how you made BILLIONS after you decided the movies should be fun? Learn from that!) And NOT doing that seems to be the billion dollar strat for WotC too.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

First of all, children are drawn to darkness - to scary stuff.

the darkest scariest players I ever remember were ones that where single digits in age...

a non excusive list off the top of my head...

9 year old niece who wanted to play a half elf half succubus because she wanted to be raised in hell...(she said heck with a wink) and then pretty much went on to describe a sinabyte....
7 year old boy at con game wanted to cut off the heads of kobolds and leave them as a warning to others
6 (yes 6) year old son of the FLGS owners who wanted to know if there were rules for keeping someone alive while ripping there guts out... and we were not in a dungeon, we were still in town.
and the young woman (don't know age somewhere between 8-12) who asked if she could get a bonus to intimidate if she skinned the bandit and wore his face as a mask...

yes the last two I had to talk to the parents of.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is a slam dunk, and a great reminder of what Spelljammer has always been about.

I wonder if some of the people turned off by that unabashed silliness are just overly caught up in mapping their RPG identity and interests to a single publisher? There's more to fantasy RPGs than just D&D. Hell, there's more to D&D than just WotC. And cherrypicking one's memory of past D&D stuff that aligns with your tastes is kind of a problem. Hindsight isn't actually 20/20, and neither is nostalgia.

I also wonder if part of the issue is the way products are announced and discussed now, compared to whatever era someone might remember as their golden/formative age of D&D. When Spelljammer was first released there were no forums for breathless anticipation and guesswork about every single upcoming D&D product. And when something did come out, it was easy enough to look at the cover and say, Huh, guess that's not for me, and move on. There was less hype, in part because there were fewer ways to broadcast and consume hype. For example, I never saw Spelljammer space hamster art back in the day, because I noped past Spelljammer without even cracking it open. But I also wasn't feasting on hype and speculation--not because I had better things to do, mind you. That just wasn't an option.

To me, being disappointed that WotC isn't living up to your specific expectations, but continuing to closely follow their every release, hoping things will turn around...that seems like a self-inflicted wound.

You can't engage in the D&D community without constant talk about WotC's recent and upcoming releases. I mean..it's almost literally impossible.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Yeah. Kids have none of either the sensibilities to not want, nor the filter to not say every awful impulse that comes into their noggins.

One of my little cousins wore the skin of the magic talking ape sidekick the party adventured with for several weeks the second dude died.

No, it didn't provide AC or magical effects. It was a gorilla and he wanted to wear him.

No, none of the other kids batted a single eye while I'm sitting there at the end of the table, screaming internally because a 10 year old doesn't understand it when you say 'dude, stop being a psycho'.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Going back to, "it's just an elf-game" is the laziest argument this forum can produce. Not very respectful either. I'm really tired of seeing it.

All leisure activates are silly. D&D, sports, there all a stupid waste of time.

That's the point. We do serious dull stuff all day to earn a living, then we do something silly to get away from that.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Going back to, "it's just an elf-game" is the laziest argument this forum can produce. Not very respectful either. I'm really tired of seeing it.

I have bad news for you then... it's just a game. It isn't serious

 

[payn]

All leisure activates are silly. D&D, sports, there all a stupid waste of time.

No, I dont think so. These activities can promote bonding, better health (sports anyway), and stress relief. During the pandemic we can see quite a bit of need for these things which I would argue means they are certainly not a waste of time. Silly, is in the eye of the beholder as folks into sports dont see it that way, and likely RPGers do not either.

That's the point. We do serious dull stuff all day to earn a living, then we do something silly to get away from that.

I believe, there might be a certain element of sports > RPGs in American culture going on here. For example, nobody bats an eye at people talking about sports building friendships, promoting teamwork, and training folks in leadership. RPGs, though, often are seen as children's games that dont net those benefits. It is seen as sad/bad for adults to engage in. Videogames were largely seen this way too for a long time. The concern seems to be in changing that perception in the culture at large.

As for Spelljammer making folks not take D&D seriously, I hardly doubt anybody on the outside of the hobby looks at D&D with this level of granularity.