D&D and World of Warcraft (Not a Rant)

[Paraxis]

Ok, alot of talk gets thrown around about the influence that World of Warcraft might be having on the next version of D&D (and even some 3E stuff), lets try and have a civil conversation about this.

I for one think D&D had a ton of inspiration on Warcraft and WoW. Just like I don't think Diablo or games like it would have ever existed without D&D. I don't think if one or the other has a good idea that the other should not use it.

So "if" 4E is influenced by World of Warcraft and they are good influences I see it as the father learning something from his son and getting better for it.

Races:
Human - both D&D and WOW (no surprise there)
Elf - new core elf is nature focused getting back to woodelf role, WOW has Night Elves very woodsy themselves
Eladrin - a more magical elf tied to the Feywild, WOW has Blood Elves a more magic elf from another plane
Dwarf - well a dwarf is a dwarf both have them
Halfling - D&D has them, WOW does not
Gnome- now in the MM, WOW has them as PC race and stole most of thier flavor from Dragonlance IMO
Orc - looks like them and half-orcs are no longer in PHB, in WOW they are a major race
Tiefling - weird looking ancient race with other worldly ties, WOW has them they are called Drendari ??? I think
Half-Elf - only in D&D

Classes and Roles
Fighter- Warrior
Wizard- Mage
Cleric- Priest
Rogue- Rogue
Warlock- Warlock
Ranger- Hunter
Paladin- Paladin (now both games let them be bad guys too)
Warlord- Maybe compares to a new class coming soon called Deathknight? IDK

Defender= Tank
Leader= Healer
Striker= DPS
Controler= Controler

What about mana recovery and atwill/per encounter/per day ability comparisons?

What other similarities are there?

Again, I think that if 4E is taking good stuff from any resource like WoW, novels, movies, ect and they make the game more fun go ahead and do it. Why not take the best ideas from around you to make your product even better?

My experience with D&D is about 22 years or so, my experience with World of Warcraft has been off and on for the past two years currently off. I never played the latest expansion, and only ever got to about level 55 or so before I got bored. I find MMORG's repetative for the most part and not the same thing as table top play in the slightest. Real in person role-playing is so much more dynamic then voice chat with a guild over the net doing the same instance over and over again.

 

[hong]

Personally, I reckon Guild Wars might be a closer fit to 4E than WOW.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Just a few minor nitpicks/corrections :

Eladrin - a more magical elf tied to the Feywild, WOW has Blood Elves a more magic elf from another plane

While it seems like a good bet that the Eladrin and Blood Elves both fit the "high arcanist" description, Blood Elves don't come from another plane. They're just elves who are addicted to magical energy.

Tiefling - weird looking ancient race with other worldly ties, WOW has them they are called Drendari ??? I think

Draenei is what you're looking for. While the Draenei are basically reformed demons, they no longer have a lot of demonic powers - their basic theme is that of servants of the Light and being goody two-shoes . But yeah, both races have the otherworldly aspect to them.

Warlord- Maybe compares to a new class coming soon called Deathknight? IDK

No, the Deathknight is more like a prestige class.

Again, I think that if 4E is taking good stuff from any resource like WoW, novels, movies, ect and they make the game more fun go ahead and do it. Why not take the best ideas from around you to make your product even better?

I agree.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Just a few comments...

That's a reasonable analogy with elves:eladrin::night elves:blood elves, though it falls apart after a bit, since blood elves are more crackheads than, say, planar things. Also, they're the remnants of High Elves that have fallen pretty far.

Tieflings and draenei are not the same; some draenei have become demons (called eredar), but nearly every race can become demonic; for example, demonic elves are satyrs, and demonic orcs are fel orcs (though they're not actual demons yet).

The class overlap is generally okay, though there's not really a specific buffer/support class in WoW at this time. I would change a few things, though:

WoW paladin = D&D cleric/paladin/warlord, depending on your lens and spec
WoW priest = D&D psion (look at the flavor of the Shadow spells)

WoW Deathknight = No current D&D base class; instead, more of a creepy martial prestige class. (It's basically a warrior replacement class)

At will/recovery abilities...generally, a party can get through a few encounters in WoW (think instance pulls) before having to rest up for a bit, because mana doesn't come back in combat unless in certain special exceptions. This, combined with cooldowns, is fairly close to the at will/per encounter/per day arrangement. At least, close enough for government work...

Brad

 

[DarkWhite]

Remember during the transition from 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed, WotC released this dreadful D&D-DiabloII products that weren't quite 2nd Ed, but weren't quite 3rd Ed either, so were compatible with neither?

I really like the flavour of DiabloII, just not the D&D execution of it. I also really enjoy what Sword&Sorcery have done with the World of Warcraft RPG.

I really think conversions of computer games to D&D need to honour the background source material (fluff), but stay faithful to the D&D rules system (crunch). This is why I regard World of Warcraft RPG a success, but Everquest RPG a failure. I can only assume Everquest strayed from D20 compatibility to more closely reflect the mechanics of the computer game - but lost the D&D audience in doing so.

Anyone think 4th Ed, borrowing ideas from it's computer game cousins (particularly talent trees), is now ready to have another take on DiabloII? Swords&Sorcery would almost certainly want to release a 4th Ed version of their World of Warcraft RPG, wouldn't you think?

 

[Bishmon]

Not that I'm against it, but none of that really strikes me as being influenced from WoW. I mean, if me and another guy are both wearing jeans, did one of us influence the other? Probably not, jeans are just a common thing to wear. Same thing with elves liking nature and there being a ranger class. All of that stuff is pretty common to various fantasy RPGs and fantasy literature, so it's not surprising to see common elements in current popular fantasy RPGs.

The one thing you could maybe make a case for is the class roles, but even those have been around since the beginning of D&D with the standard fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard idea. Now they're just kinda defining those class roles a bit more clearly to encompass other classes in them.

This whole thing about WoW and 4e just strikes me as much ado about nothing.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

I haven't played many MMORPG's, or even other RPG systems, but
- critting with spells
- being able to crit undead (zombies at least)
- reducing the variance of spell effects (less dice - speculation on my part)
- "points of light" (ie "secure" areas that are far apart with danger between them)

are elements that you can find in WoW.

(Also, in the WoW RPG, couldn't you got up to 30th level?)

AR

 

[beholdsa]

There's a spectrum of theme and gameplay that ranges from low and realistic to epic and over the top. Currently D&D is somewhere in the middle there, with WoW being more to the epic-and-over-the-top side compared to D&D.

Unfortunately, the side I prefer more is the more low-and-realistic side of the spectrum. 4th Edition seems to be taking the game in the opposite direction of where I would like the game to go. In 3.5e my favorite levels are 1 -3. The game essentially becomes almost unplayable IMHO around level 7 or 8 when casters begin to get 4th level spells.

I am a big fan of games where PCs start out small and have to work their way up, kicking and fighting for every inch of power and recognition along the way. I like games where death is imminent and could lurk at every strike. I like game where the town guards or hordes of villagers pose a threat to even established characters.

I don't want epic-level superheroes, videogame-like moves that break my suspension of disbelief or anything more over-the-top than your typical old Dragonlance novel.

Comparing to MMOs, I want more old school Ultima Online, less Everquest/WoW.

 

[Cam Banks]

The biggest WoW influence I can see is the way the guys at WotC seem to talk. Most of them play WoW a lot; Noonan talks about it in his blog. I think the inevitable bleed-over from WoW-talk to talking about gaming in general to talking to D&D is evident. Sure, WoWisms have their roots in many places, including D&D, but having them crop up so prominently in description, discussion, and terminology in the blogs really speaks to the MMORPG primacy in the gaming audience.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Paraxis]

Shushhh ....

"This whole thing about WoW and 4e just strikes me as much ado about nothing."--Bishmon

That was going to be the overall point I was trying to make with the thread. It is much ado about nothing, fantasy gaming is fantasy gaming of course there will be crossover. I could compare Lord of the Rings, Warhammer, Warcraft, Diablo, D&D, Hackmaster, Slayers (anime), and Game of Thrones (novel) and draw alot of comparisons.

Still some things make do a double take--Knight class out of PHB2 having a form of agro managment for instance, but overall anything that does not kill D&D makes it stronger.

But back to comparing WOW and D&D. I didn't know about the Draenei being reformed demons that makes it even sound more like Tieflings to me.

Ohh, and second the idea of another Diablo 2 source book for 4E. I loved that game, and the idea of runes, tons of random mods on magic items, and the whole feel of it should just be ported over to some type of source book. Just leave out the Cow Level.

I actualy get the feeling that traps in 4E will be more like the statues that fire balls of fire at you while you fight other monsters, then they are now. I expect traps to be something that happens in the middle of fights not just on the chest or door after the fight.