D&D Armageddon - Blood Wars End, Sigil Falls to Seige

[JacktheRabbit]

Sigil can fall, if you remove the Lady from the equation.
1.But what I contend is due to the fact that only the Lady is able to alter Sigils portals, they would be unsealable in her abscene. Given that fact, no occupying force would be able to hold the city proper. Attacks can come from all sides, and even if you guard the large and well known portals, it would be impossible for Demons and Devils to hold the city.

There would be about 2-3 weeks were the demons and devils would have street to street fighting, and despite their number, Sigil residence would bleed them. By the time they had cleared the city, (no small task given what is running around in it, and under it), they would still be suffering from Guerilla style attacks from the many open portals. You would literally have to kill every non-demon and devil off in the city and then pour the city so full of them that they could guard every tunnel, portal and gate way. Your offense would stall just to hold the city, and unless you took every gate town as well, you wouldn't stand a chance of even beginning to hold.

Sigil wouldn't turn into a Demonic/Devil stronghold, but rather the equivalent of Vietnam or Seriavo, only 666 times worse. The overlords would keep pouring troups in and Sigil would keep eating them. You wouldn't even need a huge number of troops, just a couple high level adventuring parties would suffice.
And given the number of people who would want Sigil back, they would be depleting their forces rather quickly.

And even if you could seal portals, they just pop up everywhere here and offer much the same problem. Just something to think about.

The Abyss really is the inifinite plane. There are so many demons in the abyss that you could wipe out every inhabitant in Sigil with ease. Then after that it would just be sheer numbers that would keep anyone from being insane enough to take a portal TO Sigil.

 

[Shemeska]

The Abyss really is the inifinite plane. There are so many demons in the abyss that you could wipe out every inhabitant in Sigil with ease. Then after that it would just be sheer numbers that would keep anyone from being insane enough to take a portal TO Sigil.

Well, I've already said my bit a number of posts back. But I think the main point that Toras should have stressed is that no invading force, be they demon, devil, Yugoloth, celestial or true deity can enter Sigil without The Lady allowing it. Portal key or not, a portal doesn't open if by The Lady's design or whim it simply doesn't open.

Yes it's one of the hard core points regarding Sigil, but it's one that has to be taken into consideration unless you've got a disgustingly well conceived notion of getting around it, somehow. That sort of story and setup should frankly take a very long time in and out of game to be conceived and fall into place. Otherwise I think it's rushed and not being given the time it needs to mature, sink in and frankly, and most importantly, be believable.

Still, my problems with Sigil being invaded aside, I think this thread can give some folks some interesting ideas to play around with.

And any mention of Sigil of course is very cool

[www.planewalker.com for all your 3e Planescape conversion needs, factions, feats, and Sigil itself]

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Well, I've already said my bit a number of posts back. But I think the main point that Toras should have stressed is that no invading force, be they demon, devil, Yugoloth, celestial or true deity can enter Sigil without The Lady allowing it. Portal key or not, a portal doesn't open if by The Lady's design or whim it simply doesn't open.

Yes it's one of the hard core points regarding Sigil, but it's one that has to be taken into consideration unless you've got a disgustingly well conceived notion of getting around it, somehow. That sort of story and setup should frankly take a very long time in and out of game to be conceived and fall into place. Otherwise I think it's rushed and not being given the time it needs to mature, sink in and frankly, and most importantly, be believable.

Still, my problems with Sigil being invaded aside, I think this thread can give some folks some interesting ideas to play around with.

And any mention of Sigil of course is very cool

[www.planewalker.com for all your 3e Planescape conversion needs, factions, feats, and Sigil itself]

That is why I posted my long bit about taking out the Lady. You are right by the current convention if she is still in Sigil and in power then she cannot be removed.

 

[Paka]

Sigil can be a Vietnam, Casablanca or Minus Morgul.

Have fun and think evil thoughts.

 

[DanMcS]

Well, I've already said my bit a number of posts back. But I think the main point that Toras should have stressed is that no invading force, be they demon, devil, Yugoloth, celestial or true deity can enter Sigil without The Lady allowing it. Portal key or not, a portal doesn't open if by The Lady's design or whim it simply doesn't open.

Yep. That's canon. And if it slows up the story, about the fiends overrunning the universe, it should be instantly ignored, and no amount of complaining by the by-the-bookers should change the author's mind. Sigil and the Lady of Pain have always been heavy-handed plot devices anyway, so changing them matters not a whit.

In fact, if I were running a campaign like this, I wouldn't even feel compelled to come up with an explanation immediately. I'd leave it a mystery; if the PCs have no way of knowing how, exactly, the fiends took over the city, then the players don't get to know either, and they don't even get to know whether /I/ know or not

This lets them think you've come up with something really evil and earthshattering, and nothing can scare players more than the plot twists they dream up in their own heads.

 

[Toras]

Yes, there is the fact that the Lady has absolute control over Sigilian portals, and no one else has ever been able to rest that from her. Thats what got Aoskar killed.
But beyond that, saying the Abyss is infinite is meaningless.
You would need infinite time and resources to marshall an infinite army, especially with Chaotic beings that often would be pressed into service.
Given that we aren't dealing with Infinite Time, you would have a finite, though large number.

Points
1. There are only So many portals to the lower planes, and only so many additional ones that could be accessed in a reasonable amount of time.
This number is significantly less than the amount of troups mustered.
2. Thusly it will take time to deploy those troops within Sigil.
3. In this time, those much more limited forces would be likely engaged by city forces (after initial suprise).
4. Now you have a much more limited force engaging a native population in its own city, in street combat (something which does not necessarily favor large numbers) Keep in mind, while Balors and Pitfiends are barred from Sigil, the Prime equivalents such as Titans, 20+ adventures, proxies, and etc are not, and despite the numbers, they will make it a bloody battle.

5. In time the numbers would overwhelm the natives of Sigil (at least those living on the service, undersigil is fun). Attrition would likely be great, but in time
6. Now you have the city, and you can keep moving more and more devils and demons in.

That is assuming the Lady is taken/forced out of Sigil, assuming that she can't control the portals from the outside. (Wouldn't the Fiendish Army feel stupid if they got in and discovered they were stuck in a city which they couldn't leave.)

You could fill Sigil completely full of devils and demons (pack them in like Sardines) and you still have this essential problem. Sigil is FILLED with portals, portals that now no one can close. (Only the Lady could do so previously).
You now have an army that is vunerable from every possible angle. Every non-Lower Planar portal is a potential entry point for a quick strike force. All they have to do is jump in, blast some fiends and jump back out. They cannot possibly defend every portal completely, and even if they have guards on Every Portal (Every enclosed space has the potential), they can't defend against people just tossing bombs, spells or other such things through. Hell, if some enterprising Celestials wanted to, they could use a bless water enchantment and a decanter of endless water to flood certain sections with holy water. The Air portals that supply the city with air would be good candidates, as would any of the high level portals.

Not matter how many troops you have, you cannot maintain the necessary discipline to sustain a conflict on all sides nor posse the knowledge over every portal in Sigil to properly defend them. It would be a constant blood bath, especially if the forces not aligned with the Fiends got organized. (Easier task, cause Neutrality and Good don't feed upon themselves)

That is my other point.

 

[RingXero]

Well, I don't like to think that the Lady/Sigil is sancrosanct and cannot be touched, but if you do allow sigil to be sacked, keep her as a force of nature, neutral, etc...

Personally like the idea of the Lady removed from Sigil, trying to get back in.

Let's say somehow the Demons/Devils/'loths/Orcus, etc... manage to taint her with divine essence, and she gets booted. Maybe this is done with knowledge gleened from Mechanus, succesfully mapping all of her mazes, or whatever. It doesn't matter as long as it's not repeatable. But, without the Lady to act as a stabilizing force, the portals of Sigil go wild, travel through them it extremely hazardous, travelers end up in random planes, even if they make it through alive at all. Thus making Sigil impossible to take and even if done so, worthless as a staging point. Planar travel is also affected to a lesser degree. The Demons(etc...) who thought they knew how to control the portals thus begin to search for the Lady to extract her secrets from her. This also has a side effect of causing their expansion to slow down to a crawl.

The Lady meanwhile can create temporary gateways/portals that are safe and stable, or ones made close to her are. Keep her as a 'force', a small court of Dabus interpret her will or think they do, no communication directly with any pc or other npc. The Dabus may recruit npc/pcs to her, but her 'side' is just to remove the divine essence that taints her so that she can return to Sigil. Any good (or evil) done is purely a side effect.

The good powers may not want her to be back in place as this would allow the Demons and Devils to expand with great speed once more.

RX

 

[Zappo]

At first it will seem innocent just some chant about

Spoiler

Orcus

returning to his rightfull place, after that their will be hushed talk of talks between the fiendish races. And after that all hell will brake loose ... hehehe, just imagining their faces as I let it slowly become obvious that the return of

Spoiler

Orcus

started this whole chain of events will be priceless

That's a neat idea,

Spoiler

Orcus

is possibly the one being who could forge such an alliance, seeing as he

Spoiler

has been Primus for a while and has learned to think in a lawful way a bit - during one of the intermissions, he is even described as noticing this change in himself

.

 

[Chauzu]

I have some questions for you Planescapers:

Is the Lady an all-knowing sort-of being, or can she be fooled?

Does the Lady control the portals inside the Portal Towns also, or just the portals in Sigil?

If she can only control the portals in Sigil, why can't the fiends coming through a portal in Plague-Mort, Torch, or Ribcage just fly up to Sigil? Is Sigil only enterable through portals, even if you are coming from the rest of the Outlands?

What other powers does the Lady have?

 

[Shemeska]

I have some questions for you Planescapers:

Is the Lady an all-knowing sort-of being, or can she be fooled?

Does the Lady control the portals inside the Portal Towns also, or just the portals in Sigil?

If she can only control the portals in Sigil, why can't the fiends coming through a portal in Plague-Mort, Torch, or Ribcage just fly up to Sigil? Is Sigil only enterable through portals, even if you are coming from the rest of the Outlands?

What other powers does the Lady have?

The Lady is generally considered to be all powerful within Sigil, though there have been a very slim few instances where her ability to sense a small area in the city was blocked by an artifact (of unknown origin and purpose, however She allowed the building it rested in to exist, perhaps on purpose. This one instance of a perceived weakness by The Lady is anamolous. (the module 'Harbinger House')

It is known that The Lady's scope of vision seems to defy the normal mortal and immortal sense of linear time. (see 'Faction War')

The Lady has ultimate and final control over the portals of Sigil. Aka any portal that goes out of Sigil or leads into Sigil is over the control of The Lady ultimately, regardless of where this portal is or who is attempting to open it.

The only way to enter Sigil is by way of the portals. The infinite spire in the Outlands is infinite and cannot be scaled to reach Sigil. Sigil does overlap the Astral but you cannot enter Sigil nor leave Sigil by way of the Astral, it is blocked off from the rest of the Astral plane by a barrier that cannot be traversed by objects or spells.

The Lady can maze an individual, and need not be present physically to invoke this power. A person simply turns a corner and finds themselves in a new room or street that loops back onto itself, devoid of any persons besides themselves. The mazes exist as portions of Sigil spun off into the Deep Ethereal as demiplanes unto themselves. You can find and enter these from the outside, however once inside the only way to escape is by way of a single hidden portal that is perhaps more to taunt the condemned than to offer hope of escape.

Also, when in the mazes you do not age, and food appears for you twice per day. Dying inside the mazes is unknown as to what would happen to your soul, though since suicide might be considered an easy way out it may be impossible to kill yourself, or you may arise spontaneously after each attempt. This is an unknown.

The Lady also has the power to flay an individual, Her shadow simply appears and wherever it touches its victim they erupt into a storm of bloody cuts, gouges and slashes. They quite literally explode in a mess of blood and gore. There is no way to escape this punishment, dodge it or resist it. This applies to mortals, immortals, and even true deities. Aoskar the greater god of portals, planewalking and opportunity was obliterated by The Lady along with his temple in Sigil, his priests, and his worshippers (in Sigil and outside it as well). The only survivor known was Fell the fallen Dabus, Aoskar's proxy who forsaked The Lady and survives now perhaps as mercy or punishment for his sins.

The Lady's ability to maze is perhaps capable of reaching outside Sigil as well, though this is suspected but not proven. Factol Skall of the Dustmen may have been in the Dustmen faction headquarters in the Negative Energy plane at the time that he was mazed, rather than being in Sigil. If so this extends The Lady's reach considerably.

That said, The Lady is a passive defender of Sigil and doesn't always react in public and immediately to any threat. For instance the Blood War once spilled over into the Hive ward of Sigil for a week or more and She did nothing till finally ejecting the fiend's en masse on day. The Lady does not answer every minor threat to Sigil's residents lest they treat her authority and protection as expected and routine. She cares for the city of Sigil itself, not necessarily its citizens...

For a bit more on this either look at the older Planescape books, or a nice summary (if I do say so myself) in the 3e Sigil guide at www.planewalker.com , since it covers The Lady, the portals, mazes, etc.

The Lady may have other powers as well, she's an unknown in many ways. (See 'Faction War' for instances of The Lady hurling an NPC back in time, erasing his memories selectively, bottling his soul in an impenetreble gem for his own 'future' self to use to kill 'himself', and hurling the gem into the depths of Carceri. Death by created time loop essentially)