WotC D&D Beyond current development

I don't follow. It still works great. How is that a problem? Almost everyone that I know in the game uses it and I haven't heard anyone complain.
It hasn't improved meaningfully for around two years at this point. Up until then, it improved pretty regularly.

In the last few months, particularly, nothing has really been improved or even fixed, and promises of fixing things like Supernatural Gifts from two years ago are still unfulfilled.
 

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Like third party support or marketplace, for instance.

Or an API.

Could be something positive vs something negative.
What would you want to bet, though @darjr?

I mean, I think we all suspect they're doing some kind of major work here, but do you actually think it's likely that they'll come out with the features you're listing? I mean, personally, I'd say:

1) Third party support/marketplace - I think there is absolutely no chance of this whatsoever.

I mean I hope I'm wrong, but WotC has been standoffish about 3PP for a while now. Not opposed, but not doing much to support it, either. That's a perfectly fair position for them to take, but it's extremely far from actively supporting 3PP material.

There are a number of reasons I think this unlikely, and I think they're pretty valid reasons:

A) The amount of work to even create training materials for 3PPs so they could use presumably the internal/power-user tools Beyond has for creating products would likely be extremely significant. They'd also have to create and maintain some sort of system for external users to log on and create products whilst maintaining separation from internal users, which may well not yet exist.

B) Then they'd have to check on the results. If they're letting 3PPs put stuff up that doesn't work, or worse somehow crashes or clogs up characters etc. that use the 3PP materials, that'd be very bad. And it's likely a huge number of 3PPs would want to get on Beyond, and even if they limit it to specific partners (like, say, Critical Role), that's still a lot of work for a company that seems to be struggling with its current burdens.

C) They'd also have to content-check everything to ensure that it was "okay" in other ways. Right now, barring a tiny amount of ancient Critical Role content, everything on Beyond has the "Nintendo Seal of Quality", as it were, by being WotC-made. That ensures a certain level of child-friendliness and lack of risque content or risky content in other ways. The reality is, if they mess up, WotC will get blamed, not the 3PPs, by customers (of which they apparently have in excess of 10m!).

D) They'd have to let 3PPs upload a ton of art and so on so it could be hosted on Beyond. This is a more minor thing, but I suspect it's still likely to cause issues. If they did it "manually", i.e. the 3PP sends them the art, tells them to upload it and so on, that'd be a huge burden on Beyond, because there's likely to be a fair bit of back-and-forth. But I'm skeptical they already have an externally-accessible way to upload art or similar content.

E) 3PPs are likely to have a ton of requests/demands, especially for unique new rules formulations and the like, that, if Beyond met them, would represent a pretty huge burden on them. If they didn't, it'd mess with a ton of 3PP products, and prevent many of the more exciting/interesting ones from working, which might create more discontent than simply not having 3PP products.

I suspect that even at say, a 50% cut to WotC, this would make the effort not worth it for them. Just too much cost in order to essentially help your competitors (however minor). With OneBookShelf, WotC presumably did just about nothing apart from clarify what was acceptable to upload, and still wanted a big cut. Here WotC, through Beyond, would be looking at far more work for certainly not much short or mid-term gain and only arguable long-term gain.

If you think these points are invalid, I'd be interested to know why.

2) An API - Beyond said they were doing this in 2019, but have been silent about it since.

The question with any API is cui bono?

Who actually benefits from it. Most APIs benefit the company providing them by increasing usage of their paid (or government-backed or similar) software. Here it's not immediately obvious how WotC/Beyond would benefit from a public/semi-public API. WotC have been extremely clear on their plans - they want to create a massive high-quality VTT to go with Beyond. They're projecting it being available in 2024 (which I think is very soon, development-wise, frankly).

That means, imho, WotC's view would be that they have nothing to gain from a public API or even really a partner one.

So I think it's much more likely that we're looking at them working on two things:

3) Ensuring that Beyond is 1D&D-ready. I mean, they have to do this. This may mean a massive redoing of how Beyond works of course, especially if "Generic Feature" stuff wasn't actually as good as they were saying it was going to be.

4) Ensuring that Beyond has any changes it needs to integrate fully with the upcoming VTT project, which again, WotC have scheduled for 2024, which I think it a pretty optimistic scheduling.
 

darjr

I crit!
What would you want to bet, though @darjr?

I mean, I think we all suspect they're doing some kind of major work here, but do you actually think it's likely that they'll come out with the features you're listing? I mean, personally, I'd say:

1) Third party support/marketplace - I think there is absolutely no chance of this whatsoever.

I mean I hope I'm wrong, but WotC has been standoffish about 3PP for a while now. Not opposed, but not doing much to support it, either. That's a perfectly fair position for them to take, but it's extremely far from actively supporting 3PP material.

There are a number of reasons I think this unlikely, and I think they're pretty valid reasons:

A) The amount of work to even create training materials for 3PPs so they could use presumably the internal/power-user tools Beyond has for creating products would likely be extremely significant. They'd also have to create and maintain some sort of system for external users to log on and create products whilst maintaining separation from internal users, which may well not yet exist.

B) Then they'd have to check on the results. If they're letting 3PPs put stuff up that doesn't work, or worse somehow crashes or clogs up characters etc. that use the 3PP materials, that'd be very bad. And it's likely a huge number of 3PPs would want to get on Beyond, and even if they limit it to specific partners (like, say, Critical Role), that's still a lot of work for a company that seems to be struggling with its current burdens.

C) They'd also have to content-check everything to ensure that it was "okay" in other ways. Right now, barring a tiny amount of ancient Critical Role content, everything on Beyond has the "Nintendo Seal of Quality", as it were, by being WotC-made. That ensures a certain level of child-friendliness and lack of risque content or risky content in other ways. The reality is, if they mess up, WotC will get blamed, not the 3PPs, by customers (of which they apparently have in excess of 10m!).

D) They'd have to let 3PPs upload a ton of art and so on so it could be hosted on Beyond. This is a more minor thing, but I suspect it's still likely to cause issues. If they did it "manually", i.e. the 3PP sends them the art, tells them to upload it and so on, that'd be a huge burden on Beyond, because there's likely to be a fair bit of back-and-forth. But I'm skeptical they already have an externally-accessible way to upload art or similar content.

E) 3PPs are likely to have a ton of requests/demands, especially for unique new rules formulations and the like, that, if Beyond met them, would represent a pretty huge burden on them. If they didn't, it'd mess with a ton of 3PP products, and prevent many of the more exciting/interesting ones from working, which might create more discontent than simply not having 3PP products.

I suspect that even at say, a 50% cut to WotC, this would make the effort not worth it for them. Just too much cost in order to essentially help your competitors (however minor). With OneBookShelf, WotC presumably did just about nothing apart from clarify what was acceptable to upload, and still wanted a big cut. Here WotC, through Beyond, would be looking at far more work for certainly not much short or mid-term gain and only arguable long-term gain.

If you think these points are invalid, I'd be interested to know why.

2) An API - Beyond said they were doing this in 2019, but have been silent about it since.

The question with any API is cui bono?

Who actually benefits from it. Most APIs benefit the company providing them by increasing usage of their paid (or government-backed or similar) software. Here it's not immediately obvious how WotC/Beyond would benefit from a public/semi-public API. WotC have been extremely clear on their plans - they want to create a massive high-quality VTT to go with Beyond. They're projecting it being available in 2024 (which I think is very soon, development-wise, frankly).

That means, imho, WotC's view would be that they have nothing to gain from a public API or even really a partner one.

So I think it's much more likely that we're looking at them working on two things:

3) Ensuring that Beyond is 1D&D-ready. I mean, they have to do this. This may mean a massive redoing of how Beyond works of course, especially if "Generic Feature" stuff wasn't actually as good as they were saying it was going to be.

4) Ensuring that Beyond has any changes it needs to integrate fully with the upcoming VTT project, which again, WotC have scheduled for 2024, which I think it a pretty optimistic scheduling.
It’s as likely as anything said so far.

It’s at least positive speculation.
 
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It’s as likely as anything said so far.

It’s at least positive speculation.
So just for clarity's sake, you think support for 3PP is as likely the reason for them retooling Beyond as support for 1D&D and the 2024 VTT?

Also I'm confused by your use of positive/negative here. Wouldn't support for 1D&D/VTT also be nominally positive? Not as positive as 3PP support, sure, but basically a good thing.
 

You clearly don't know what any of the things I mentioned actually are, so this seems like an extremely bold position to take. I mean, if you do, why don't you go ahead and explain, that'll be interesting.
I was a software architect for many years. I've designed, implemented and maintained several production applications. I've operated as a team lead, product lead, development lead, technical lead, etc. For the last few years, I've taken a step back and work as a software engineer who provides mentorship to development teams and advice to the architecture groups at the companies I work for.
So clearly, I don't know that when you say: "I use a lot of products for building rules-based automation solutions and even apps - mostly low-code stuff", you're talking about some sort of BPM or similar type of software that gives the user access to some sort of (proprietary) scripting language that lets you create the 'rules' that drive your workflows. That is a bit above 'using software' for sure. Congratulations. Also for sure: it gives you zero insight into how software development actually works.
 

It hasn't improved meaningfully for around two years at this point. Up until then, it improved pretty regularly.

In the last few months, particularly, nothing has really been improved or even fixed, and promises of fixing things like Supernatural Gifts from two years ago are still unfulfilled.
Likely because they are planning the adjustments they will need to make for OneD&D. Any change made in the software incurs costs: time/effort from first product management, then the developers and the test team. I would guess that they're focusing their effort and dollars on:

Learning the idiosyncrasies of the business they've acquired.
Understanding the code base.
Planning for new features they want to introduce, both because of OneD&D and in general.
 



Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
So you probably work with software suppliers and other devs.

What do you call them when they repeatedly, seemingly intentionally mislead you?

With respect, you probably aren't talking to the developers. You are talking with sales and marketing types.

What do you call them when what they say does not end up being what happens? Typical sales and marketing types.

There is a persistent problem in software businesses of sales and marketing selling things before they are ready in either the technical or business senses. Yes, stuff gets talked about that turns out never to happen.

And very frequently, they try to manage expectations, saying things like, "We plan to do X," but the customer usually takes that as a commitment anyway, so, I kind of have to shrug and move on.
 

Burnside

Space Jam Confirmed
Supporter
So just for clarity's sake, you think support for 3PP is as likely the reason for them retooling Beyond as support for 1D&D and the 2024 VTT?

Also I'm confused by your use of positive/negative here. Wouldn't support for 1D&D/VTT also be nominally positive? Not as positive as 3PP support, sure, but basically a good thing.

Regarding 3PP content, I think it really depends on what sort of content we're talking about.

As long as the 3PP doesn't involve new mechanics, it would be fairly easy on a technical level. For example, a 3PP adventure that just uses text, images, and hotlinks to pre-existing DNDBeyond content for creatures, items, conditions, etc. If I really wanted to, I go on their forum and make that right now. They did mini-adventures regularly as blog posts when they had James Haeck on staff.

There is already a front-end tool for creating spells, monsters, items, backgrounds, feats, races, and subclasses.

Quality curation is a stickier issue, but there's no reason they can't do it to the degree that DMsGuild does it (which involves a fair amount of community self-policing and reporting). They could even potentially do it in collaboration with DMsGuild - no 3PP in DNDBeyond that isn't on DMsGuild, so effectively you let DMsGuild handle the policing for you, a job they're already doing.

FWIW, if there is a 3PP DNDBeyond marketplace, I expect the TOS to be similar to DMsGuild - once content creators put stuff up for sale there, WotC becomes the publisher and effectively owns it (no Kickstarter rewards, Patreon content, selling the product on your own, etc.).

If and when they do 3PP, I expect them to start with a test batch of 10-12 hand-picked products, possibly stuff that's already DMsGuild best-sellers, rather than just opening the floodgates.
 
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