D&D Blog: Turn Undead and Monster Weaknesses

[Klaus]

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Trevor Kidd raises some interesting points. Whaddy'all think?

 

[Zaran]

I happen to like the damage plus effect that 4e introduced. I would be happy with the effect changing with the given undead creature though. I would also wouldn't mind if that it wasn't just undead. Why can't a cleric turn demons? (or at least why can't they do it without using a feat?)

I think we should keep the damage no matter what because this will simulate the high level cleric wiping out hordes of low level undead like they used to in earlier editions. Or if a cleric turns a vampire lord they may be so powerful that they overcome the effect but could still take some damage.

 

[Janaxstrus]

I still prefer the old school, where turning undead meant just that. They ran away from you. I am not a huge fan of the damaging fireball effect.

I think I'd rather they just made a mechanic for turn undead, and have it work that way for everything, UNLESS otherwise noted. I sure as heck don't want a bunch of room taken up by more situational monster things, especially if it takes away from the fluff of the monster.

 

[Zaran]

I still prefer the old school, where turning undead meant just that. They ran away from you. I am not a huge fan of the damaging fireball effect.

I think I'd rather they just made a mechanic for turn undead, and have it work that way for everything, UNLESS otherwise noted. I sure as heck don't want a bunch of room taken up by more situational monster things, especially if it takes away from the fluff of the monster.

The biggest issue with the old turn system was that it makes clerics too much of a requirement if there are undead around and it makes the GM have to upsize his encounters if there is a cleric in the party. There should never be a time when there is a huge difference power between having a cleric in the party instead of another Healer type. Sure a cleric should be good against undead. But they should never have an "I win" button.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Amazing how much flexibility a level of indirection can do for a rules system. If willing to give up "Turn Undead ability -> Undead affected" for "Turn Undead ability -> Invoke weakness -> Undead affected," suddenly lots of problems drop by the wayside while your system handles many more cases.

I swear, if some fans were designers of vehicles, the only way you could get a trailer would be to have one welded to your truck. Good luck taking the lawn mower into the shop on the boat trailer or vice versa.

 

[Janaxstrus]

The biggest issue with the old turn system was that it makes clerics too much of a requirement if there are undead around and it makes the GM have to upsize his encounters if there is a cleric in the party. There should never be a time when there is a huge difference power between having a cleric in the party instead of another Healer type. Sure a cleric should be good against undead. But they should never have an "I win" button.

How does this change with the "Turn Undead = Fireball" change I mentioned? Either way, the cleric is involved and either way it makes the challenge easier. I would maintain that the all or nothing of the TURN mechanic actually made it so undead were more dangerous than the "save and still take damage" effect.

 

[Sunseeker]

Thing is though, there's no way for a player to know these effects, as all these effects would be on the stat-block that only the DM gets to see. Personally I think sticking with a flat damage bonus or assigning the special effects to specific spell is much better and easier to keep track of.

 

[BryonD]

Bigger stat block = small problem
Better story telling = huge value
More complicated = small problem
Better story telling = huge value

 

[MortalPlague]

I really like this idea.

I mean, I really, really like it. It has the creative gears turning in my head. It could make for some really great adventures. I can picture the smirk slipping from the lich's face when the PCs brandish that oak staff, as he realizes he's no longer immortal...

 

[Savage Wombat]

This could work, but not for all weaknesses. I wouldn't want to imply that only certain classes can succesfully apply oil to a troll, for example.

Also, Flesh golems like electricity damage.