D&D Blog: Turn Undead and Monster Weaknesses

[mach1.9pants]

yeah I love it too, a line or two to the stat block with heaps of fun to be had from it. Not like it isn't very easy to ignore if you wish as well.

EDIT: I don't like the term 'skinny' as opposed to 'brute'; hopefully that'll stay out

 

[Minigiant]

The ranger and the rogue alternate stabbing at the livers of the trolls. As trolls are a well researched foe of the ranger and the rogue is sure to flank the giant monsters before striking, they can exploit the fact that a troll's regeneration shuts off when hit in the upper back.

I can deal with that.

 

[Thaumaturge]

Bigger stat block = small problem
Better story telling = huge value
More complicated = small problem
Better story telling = huge value

Not everyone will agree with these values.

I, however, do.

Obviously, the big trick is to give us the option to make the above valuation, while giving those who see small increases in complexity as a big problem a remedy.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Sir Robilar]

I have to say I don't like this idea at all and hope they won't be using it.

I can see why they are going for it. But "Invoking weakness" is much too gamey for my tastes. In concept and the name. Also, this shoehorns all kinds of class abilities into one mechanic even though they deserve their own flavorful mechanic.

If space is such a problem (I believe it's not), why not sort undead into types and explain the rules for turning undead of theses types in the cleric class writeup?

Type 1 - insubstantial undead. If turned, disappear for 1d4 minutes.
Type 2 - undead with intelligence lower than 3. If turned, can't come closer than 10 feet.
Type 3 - intelligent undead....
(...)

Then, all that would have to be added to the stat block would be something like: Ghost (Undead Type 1)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Wow, they invented the 'vulnerabilities' and 'traits' sections of the 4e monster stat block, except they gave it a worse name, lol.

I don't really understand the whole 'apply weakness' mechanic as a generalized thing. It doesn't really seem to hold together to me.

Lets use an example:

Goblin: Weakness - Hates light. Goblins grant Combat Advantage when in bright light.

Ranger: Racial Enemy - You may exploit the weakness of any creature of a type designated as your racial enemy.

How would this work? Goblins grant CA in bright light. Do rangers who are enemies of goblins just glow very brightly? Is this only visible to goblins? Must suck when you try to sneak past them!

I just don't see where there is a fitting together of things here. Maybe I'm not understanding something, but I would think there'd have to be a clearly defined effect of a particular class feature vs a given weakness, not a generic weakness. I'm just not sure this concept can be mechanically made to work except as a laundry list.

I think a better approach is the traditional approach for general weakness. The ranger class tells you what the advantage is for a ranger. This lets you support this feature for all creatures that exist or may exist, and at no extra work. If a creature has some feature that makes it REALLY unique in terms of how it interacts with another subsystem then put it in traits like 4e does. Undead vs Turn would certainly be THE most prime candidate for this and I'm all for it, but if there is a generic mechanic for Turn, then you don't HAVE to provide a different one for every single minor undead. Turning skeletons and zombies for example is probably pretty much canonical. Best to list that under the turn undead ability. When the PCs get to a vampire, well, the stat block will be there to tell the tale on that one.

 

[Minigiant]

I have to say I don't like this idea at all and hope they won't be using it.

I can see why they are going for it. But "Invoking weakness" is much too gamey for my tastes. In concept and the name. Also, this shoehorns all kinds of class abilities into one mechanic even though they deserve their own flavorful mechanic.

If space is such a problem (I believe it's not), why not sort undead into types and explain the rules for turning undead of theses types in the cleric class writeup?

Type 1 - insubstantial undead. If turned, disappear for 1d4 minutes.
Type 2 - undead with intelligence lower than 3. If turned, can't come closer than 10 feet.
Type 3 - intelligent undead....
(...)

Then, all that would have to be added to the stat block would be something like: Ghost (Undead Type 1)

Sounds familiar to my suggestion for turning
Make Turn Attempt:

• Mindless: The monster cowers and runs away from cleric. Effect ends if attacked.
  • Win by 10 or more: The monster is destroyed
  • Monster is Incorporeal or lacks a true body: The monster is Banished for 1 year.
• Animistic Mind (Int 2-): The monster stays 20' away from the cleric and all allies. It loses all actions. Effect ends if attacked.
  • Win by 10 or more: The monster is treated as Mindless.
  • Monster is Incorporeal or lacks a true body: The monster is Banished for 1 hour
• Stupid Mind (Int 3-10): The monster stays 20' away from the cleric and all allies. It can act. Effect ends if attacked.
  • Win by 10 or more: The monster is treated as Animalistic.
  • Monster is Incorporeal or lacks a true body:The monster is Banished for 5 minutes
• Smart Mind (Int 3-10): The monster stays 20' away from the cleric and all allies as long as the cleric spends a full round keeping holy symbol up. It can act. Effect ends if attacked or it cleric is interrupted.
  • Win by 10 or more: The monster is treated as Stupid.
  • Monster is Incorporeal or lacks a true body:The monster is Banished for 1d4 rounds

Wow, they invented the 'vulnerabilities' and 'traits' sections of the 4e monster stat block, except they gave it a worse name, lol.

I don't really understand the whole 'apply weakness' mechanic as a generalized thing. It doesn't really seem to hold together to me.

Lets use an example:

Goblin: Weakness - Hates light. Goblins grant Combat Advantage when in bright light.

Ranger: Racial Enemy - You may exploit the weakness of any creature of a type designated as your racial enemy.

How would this work? Goblins grant CA in bright light. Do rangers who are enemies of goblins just glow very brightly? Is this only visible to goblins? Must suck when you try to sneak past them!

Obliviously goblin hating rangers always keep a sunrod on them. And rangers that favor the undead has went though the rituals to make the saliva into holy water.

 

[Dragonblade]

I like the image of the cleric surrounded by a horde of undead, who lifts up his holy symbol and in a thunderous voice defiantly calls upon their deity to strike down these abominations. The undead reel back, feebly trying to ward themselves against it, but are quickly consumed and blown to ash by a blinding holy radiance.

That is iconic to me.

The whole notion of undead running away has always bothered me. If I was a good deity, I would want my clerics destroying undead, not scattering them around the countryside where they can plague other innocents.

I'd rather have Turn look something like this:

Once per encounter per undead, a cleric may call upon the holy power of their deity to destroy undead in their presence. All undead within 10' per level of the cleric take 5 points of holy/radiant damage per level of the cleric. Undead reduced to zero HP by a turn attempt are obliterated in a ray of holy light.

If new undead enter a combat, the cleric can try to turn them too, though the undead previously turned are unaffected. You can do other things too like make some undead resistant, or immune to this damage, or have undead be bolstered by unholy areas. Likewise, high level clerics may be able to turn 2x per encounter, or perhaps deal more damage on a turn, etc.

 

[GM Dave]

The idea of the mechanic in the monster stats to have weaknesses is fine and I can live with it.

I agree that is pretty gamey in situations and would be a real problem / short cut in others.

For example the battle with the Lich.

It is fine if the players need to find some old weapon with a handle that was made from the ancient trees and is later discovered in some collection of ancient weapons (possibly the crypt of a buried king). This is a kwel story arc.

It is not fine if the suggest replacement is a rogue that says he can sneak attack to achieve the same effect, a ranger of the undead that says he just hits liches on the crown and it is just as good, and cleric says that his expression of divinity will take care of the prophesy.

The short cut to bypass the requirement and achieve the weakness effect is not good.

---------------------------------

One of the things that people designing a 'Turn Undead' aspect is that they don't stop to ask 'What makes the undead turn and run away?"

The easy response is 'the power of divine'.

The trouble with that logic is that it never really gives an answer. It's like saying 'It's magic' and then looking smug as a pigeon crawls out of your pants.

I mean, does the power of divine 'hurt' undead? Does it strip them of some ability? Can they be killed if the divine is used?

There is also plenty of holes left in the mechanic from questions like 'Why can a person cause panic but a soldier wielding a blessed sword won't'?

It also seems like there are two effects being put into the same mechanic. There is some sort of threat to the undead (damage, removal of abilities, vulnerability created) and there is a test of wills (this seems to be more of an intimidation check).

I mean, if I am a wizard and I hold up a half formed ball of fire in my hand (threat of violence) and then say to a group of orcs, 'Scram' is this not 'Turn Orcs'?

 

[erf_beto]

One of the things that people designing a 'Turn Undead' aspect is that they don't stop to ask 'What makes the undead turn and run away?"

The easy response is 'the power of divine'.

There is also plenty of holes left in the mechanic from questions like 'Why can a person cause panic but a soldier wielding a blessed sword won't'?

I *think* it's because (most) undead are supposed to be fearless, and only the divine can make them "remember" what it is to be afraid of death again. Therefore, Turn Undead.

A blessed sword could, as a magical property, be used to turn undead, but the plain "deal holy damage" types would only cause concern to inteligent undead - and even then, it wouldn't be any different than an adventurer being threatened by monsters.

 

[Frostmarrow]

I think the idea is awesome! It's entirely possible to tone down the gameyness and keep the gist. I like how favored enemy finally is put to good use. Other than that I still think it's awesome and nice to see WoTC come up with something new.